When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set? I mean Proximity Mine tokens, Cluster Mine tokens, Conner Net tokens (and any other bombs that remain in place until a ship hits them). That is, you could select a mine token as one of your "obstacles".

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

I think you can always find room to deploy two Raider-sized huge ships in the obstacles' zone while keeping proper spacing.

Huge ship obstacles are already immune to attacks and cannot be destroyed, but Seismic Torpedoes aren't secondary weapons and they "remove the obstacle" rather than destroying it. They should work on huge ship obstacles just like any asteroid or debris cloud. Sounds like fun, actually. You could very well end up with games that have no obstacles on the board after the first round, which is kind of interesting. It's possible that this will regulate itself, and overall I'm in favor of more obstacle choices.

nevermind

77 points of whatever you want, plus this Boaty McBoatface that the internet picked out for your faction.

I'm not totally thrilled with the quirks of Margin of Victory, but it's a decent system for gauging relative performance across several rounds. It seems to me that squad diversity is pretty good right now, even with some small-based ships being point vaults, and that's partly because of the half-point rule on large ships. We still see plenty of two-large-ship lists, but you'd see a lot more of them making final tables if MOV worked the way it used to. I do think it's weird that MOV isn't used during Swiss rounds.

The question is: Did they have the choice to wait till after the release? I think FFG chooses which ships to add to the game, and when. These are just expansion packs for a miniatures game that Disney's licensing department probably doesn't understand or care about as long as the licensing fees keep getting paid. So when these ships come out with stats and upgrades that are clearly based on guesswork, we can probably blame FFG for putting profits above play experience. Fortunately, there's enough going on with this game that it can absorb a few dud ships and lots of thematic head-scratchers. And these guesses give FFG an excuse to release between-wave expansions that attempt to correct things, and these expansions do tend to improve both theme and gameplay. There's something to dislike about the way FFG seems to be doing things lately, but improving their bottom line doesn't seem to be hurting gameplay, so... I can't complain, really.

Here's the most recent version. http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf I haven't read the new FAQ update so some of this might already be busted.

We have a group of about half a dozen regulars who play every Thursday night at Matt's Cavalcade of Comics, in Corvallis, across the street from Fred Meyer at the intersection of Buchanan and Kings. Game time starts around 6pm. If you show up after 7pm, the store will be closed but you can still get to the game room by going through the door from the parking lot next to Matt's. (The door has a big decal of a Magic sorceress on it.) Join our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/corvallisxwing/

Alrighty, we're updated again and I think we're getting close to something playable again. http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-V3.pdf I think the only significant change from the last version (the one that was so colorful) is that large ships are now allowed in the more freeform squadbuilding formats. Would appreciate some proofreading and troubleshooting. I don't want to redesign the trench sheets until I'm pretty sure we're happy with the setup.

Update, with the latest changes in green: http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-V3.pdf Notes: Countdown has been returned to the original 6 full rounds, but it still isn't enough time for the Rebels to win unless they blow up at least one power node. The map is the big change, running with Blue Fire's idea for moving the trench way over toward the Rebel side. The Rebels can get into the trench on round 1, while the Imperials will be about 1 round behind them and gaining. I'm not sold on giving +1 agility for drifting, because it makes 3-agility ships too difficult to hit. The Protectorate Starfighter, which is the only small ship in the game with both a torpedo slot and a 5-straight on its dial, can move as fast as any other ship flat-out, but would roll 4 defense dice (not including screens or range) against ships, and 8 defense dice against turrets. So I'm leaving drift the way it was, where it basically adds evade to a trench-runner's action options for the round. I think a single evade token makes sense thematically because there really isn't that much room to move within the trench, and you can't look forward at turbolasers and backward at enemy ships at the same time. Without any use for boost and almost no use for barrel roll, that leaves just focus and target lock for a lot of ships, so a third option adds just that much more tactical depth. All turbos fire at PS 10, because having the trench turbos fire at the end of combat wasn't really doing anything great for us. You can now get more than 3 Rebel ships in the trench at one time, but once 3 ships are in, new ships can't enter if there are any Rebel ships within Range 3 of the entry cutoff line.

Drifting: Even with a 1-straight, you end up moving forward from where you started (1 ship base length).

PDF is updated, changes are in red: http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf

How bout: Leaving the Trench: If your ship is in the trench zone, after performing a maneuver or making any other change in position, regardless of the source of that movement, you must check to see if the ship remains in the trench zone. If any part of the ship base is outside of the trench, the ship immediately returns to the surface, receives 1 stress token, and rolls 1 attack die, suffering any [damage] or [critical damage] result. If your ship base is entirely within the trench during the Perform Action step, you may spend an action to return to the surface. If a ship leaves the trench zone and this results in an overlap with another ship in the surface zone, resolve this overlap normally. Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, the ship leaves the trench. If this results in an overlap, the acting ship will be rotated back 180°, and its most recent movement will be reversed until no longer overlapping, as usual when these sorts of maneuvers are interrupted by overlaps. Does that say enough to cover these situations? Initially I thought it would be too complicated to resolve up-from-the-trench zone overlaps resulting from turny-aroundy maneuvers, but I guess it's pretty obvious how to handle it. It seemed safer to just blow up the ship that would need repositioning, especially if there were *weird* repositioning effects that needed to be reversed. If those sorts of problems crop up, I guess we can consider the nuclear option again. If drifting gives +1 agility, then Y-Wings roll 4 defense dice against trench turbolasers, and X-Wings roll 6. But even at 2 and 3 agility, it makes basic Rebel ships pretty tanky against 2-attack-dice TIE fighters. The overuse of drifting runs the risk of cluttering up the trench, as TIEs can't fly slow enough to avoid bumping, so I don't want to make it too enticing, even if it is free. If it turns out that the Rebels really need more defense, I'd be inclined to increase the number of evade tokens (probably no higher than 2) to avoid having to adjust the turbolaser rules.

How about this: "Limited Mobility in the Trench: A ship may not perform a boost or SLAM action while in the tight confines of the trench zone. Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, it is returned to the surface zone. If this results in an overlap with a ship already in the surface zone, the active ship is destroyed." And how about this for drifting: "Any ship in the trench may perform a free drift action immediately after executing a maneuver. To perform a drift, place the long edge of a 1-straight template flush with either the left or right side of your ship base, and not extending beyond its front or back edges. Then move the ship backward and fit the front guides to the rear of the template. You cannot perform this action if it would result in overlapping another ship. After performing a drift action, you may spend an action to gain 1 evade token."

I think I've got it: "Ships cannot perform boost or SLAM actions within the tight confines of the trench zone."

Yep, SLAM needs to be banned. Should probably be "at least Range 1 from any edges, and at least Range 2 from the trench, turbolasers and other power nodes".

1. I just thought it was a little awkward to start the clock at the end of the first round. It seemed easier to set the clock during mission setup, then just remove 1 from the countdown at the end of every the round. I'm attempting to make up for it by giving the Rebels greater time extensions each time they destroy a power node (+2 or +3 ticks is most likely), but balancing that by making the nodes a bit harder to destroy. If the numbers don't quite work right, we can add a power node, make them easier to destroy, or something like that. This rule change intends to add more tension rather than take it away. 2. If the power nodes produce energy that's necessary to power turbolasers and call in reinforcements, the Imperials will be more invested in preventing their destruction. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it adds some much-needed strategic depth to the Imperial side. Choosing whether to fire a turbolaser or call in reinforcements with your available power is a pretty meaningful decision, and not just something to keep the Imperials busy. 3. I think I also prefer the all-or-nothing trench turbolasers, and will be going back to that with the next draft. But I'm going back to them partly because I think it should take 3 energy to activate the array -- another reason to protect the power nodes. 4. In the epic ship rules, it seems that energy tokens represent a variety of resources necessary to activate equipment. In the case of Imperial reinforcements it could mean the electricity and manpower for comm towers and sensors for coordinating ship movements. The use of energy tokens in this scenario has been suggested by other players, and it's something that I've been planning to do whenever I got around to it, so it's probably here to stay. 5. Engine Upgrade might not be a big problem with current map conditions (longer trench run, more difficult exhaust port shot). Taking Engine Upgrade might get you down the trench in a hurry, but you won't have Integrated Astromech to help absorb turbolaser shots, and you won't have Guidance Chips to help you land your Proton Torpedo. But the possibility that the Rebels might take Engine Upgrade pretty much forces the Imperials to take some Engine Upgrades as insurance, and I don't like that very much. 6. Wedge's pilot ability reduces the target's agility. If the exhaust port has "agility" then Wedge tends to becomes the preferred trench-runner leader, and we don't want that influence. I'm in favor of giving Luke some special advantage, but I'm sort of working up to that. Anyway, it means that the exhaust port has "defense dice" instead of agility. More on energy: Currently the Imperials have a starting budget of 8 energy, and they lose 2 each time a power node goes down. As long as all four nodes are operational, the Imperials should be able to fire just about every turbolaser with a Rebel in range, unless I'm misjudging the Rebels' ability to spread out. It might turn out that we want the Imperials to start with 12 energy or something like that, and it's easy enough to accomplish that.

Almost forgot! If anyone in this thread would like their name to appear in the credits but doesn't want to post their name here for whatever reason, feel free to befriend Dagobah Dave on Facebook or send a message to me there. I can also be reached by email: luminousbeings at gmail dot com I don't have a private message control panel here on the FFG forums (I think my account is too old or something), so the only way to contact me privately is through an outside channel. Sorry about that.

Here's my work in progress: http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf Quick rundown on the important changes: Countdown is 1 round shorter to start out with. The only way to extend it is to destroy power nodes (and I think it's practically impossible for the Rebels to win otherwise). Power nodes provide 2 energy tokens each, which are needed to fire turbolasers and place reinforcements. Destroying power nodes always adds time to the countdown. The power nodes might be so important now that we don't need a 3-ship limit in the trench, because any player that doesn't devote a large part of their squad to destroying the power nodes will probably run out of time charging down the trench with a caravan. Turbolasers have PS 10, require 1 energy to fire, and work pretty much like Single Turbolaser upgrades. Trench turbos fire individually instead of all-or-nothing. Turbolasers are much harder to kill than before. Engine Upgrade is banned. A few variant squad building rules are provided, including a copy of Biff's squads if that's okay. I can just link to Biff's mission PDF instead if that's preferable. Imperial reinforcements require 2 energy, giving the Imperial player some tough budgeting choices since turbos fire so early and reinforcements are placed so late. Currently, the ability to place reinforcements still relies on Imperial ships being destroyed, but I kind of like the idea of allowing the Imperials a more complex reinforcement capability, and starting them off with fewer ships on the table initially. Will think on that some more. The rules governing zones have been streamlined. Screening in the trench is a great rule, stealing that. Drift is now an action instead of a maneuver. The trench is offset, being closer to the Rebel starting edge, and the trench zone entry cutoff line is pushed back quite a ways. The exhaust port doesn't have shields. It always rolls 4 defense dice (not Agility, so no Wedge shenanigans -- that's a good catch). If the attack hits, the Rebels win. Playtesting is needed to see how all of these changes interact, but let me know what you think.

I'm not considering changing it. It's too efficient at preventing logjams, encouraging squads to split up to create a battle on two fronts, and producing three-ship strike groups that remind us of the ones in the movie.

Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it. A little history: I wrote v1 of this scenario really soon after the game was initially released. This was before there was a competitive scene, and before the 3x3 / 3x6 foot playing areas become the normal way to play. So it was designed to work well with the dimensions of my kitchen table, which were about 42" x 54". I playtested that version a couple of times, considered it good enough for a game that was still pretty obscure at the time, and put it up on my site. The v2 version that you're probably familiar with was altered to fit a 3x6 playing area sometime in 2014 and was never playtested by me. I'm a horrible person. So I'm surprised that it has worked as well as it has. An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.

Here's another variant for two players, based on the standard dogfight rules: Each player builds a squad in three waves; first wave up to 20 points, second wave up to 30 points, third wave up to 50 points. Players place only their first wave ship at the start of the match. At the end of each round, if all of the ships of your current wave have been destroyed, you must place all of the ships of your next wave in your starting zone.

You should have fun. I've played this format lots of times, and this is my favorite way: For Rebels and Imperials, limit each 100-point squad to just 2 different ship types (meaning, player 1 could have X-Wings and Y-Wings, player 2 could have B-Wings and HWKs, etc.). Scum can do whatever they want. Uniques apply to the entire 200-point team. Use a 3x3 or 3x4 foot play area, but nothing larger than that. Use 6 obstacles as usual, or use 3 plus a huge ship. When deploying ships, they may not be placed within Range 1 of the center of the start zone, and all of a player's ships must be placed exclusively on one side of that imaginary dead zone. In other words, each player sets up their ships in their own quadrant. Play until one player's full 100-point squad is destroyed, or until one team has destroyed 150 points. Should take about 2 hours, not including squadbuilding.