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Thundercles

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Everything posted by Thundercles

  1. it came up as part of a new post about a contest last year. Sadly, that news post is inaccessible now.
  2. How can someone find everything they need in one turn? Isn't that like 6-12 seconds?
  3. I still don't quite understand the whole picture here. Facts: 1) You can move from one staircase space to another for 1 mp 2) During an attack, you can make an attack from one tile to the other as if they were adjacent to each other. 3) LoS can be traced both ways from one staircase to the other staircase and all the spaces around it. so. Clearly the stairs cannot transmit Command, Kirga, Aura, etc. (unless stairs are made adjacent for all purposes). However, that still leaves the matter of non-template-based area attacks, and counting range to and from the squares around stair tiles. If the stair squares are adjacent, then they are 1 space away from each other for the purposes of attacks, obviously. However, how would we treat the spaces adjacent to the stairs according to the rules as written? I believe that there doesn't need to be a special written rule about how far Spaces Adjacent to Stairs (SAS for short) are from the opposite stair tile, because, in most other cases, if a space A is adjacent to a space B which is adjacent to a space C (A and C not adjacent to each other), A and C are considered to be 2 spaces away from each other. How that concept fails to apply here is what confuses me.
  4. This certainly took me by surprise. Finally a subforum for game mods. Good times.
  5. 4 for an entire dungeon where the heroes reached the fourth floor? Isn't that...terrible?
  6. Parathion said: Actually, the stairs are only considered adjacent for purposes of an attack. Regarding movement, by RAW they are no more adjacent than a glyph and the town tile. what does that even mean?
  7. I think the point has been made that the best upgrade to purchase is silver monsters (either Beasts or Eldricht) because heroes who are playing well do their very best to avoid allowing the OL to upgrade to silver. Furthermore, heroes who are playing well can speedrun levels, and the best counter to that is to make the monsters they have to kill stronger. Corbon and Remy have shown us how heroes can seek to control the game, preventing the OL from dominating. Dakashan's point seems to be that absolute dominance from the heroes is impossible, which is trivially true because otherwise the game wouldn't be playable. Perhaps it is time to let this topic rest.
  8. Dashakan said: No, i'm really not. It is very simple. I will spell it out for you: A number of dungeons were claimed to have been passable (pick up treasure and leave) in 1 turn, with a maximum possible 19 movement points. It is actually possible on none of them. That is it. This never happened. Welcome to misinterpretation. Sometimes, if everyone's telling you you're wrong, you're actually wrong.
  9. Dashakan said: Big Remy said: Wow. Okay, so since it was a standard set by someone else, and my example was targetted to YOUR statements, I actually wasn't even bound by that was I? So why again is my example invalid when it was set in Copper and YOU never said that there could be no secret training? And while we are on it, that statement about 19MP doens't even set a standard. YOU are claiming it does based on the math but again, I can't find a spot where someone said "try doing it without Secret Training. Sigh. Thundercles on page 3 of this thread. The problem Big Remy, is you are just jumping into the midst of a discussion, without understanding what was being discussed. It isn't my fault if your reading comprehension skill isn't up to snuff and you don't realize what parameters the discussion was within, and I don't feel obligated to explain it to you. Either read the thread, then contribute, or don't post. It's like people discussing fruit and you keep throwing vegetables in. It's close, but it really isn't what is being talked about. Wait, this is all because of me? heh. well, to clarify: I never once said that you should use a single character to get the treasure and also run out the door. My assertion using math was that, given the 19 mp's you could have with starting stats, it's possible to take the treasure and glyph on many levels with one character. You said that I had to take the treasure and go out the door with a single hero, specifically in the Prison level, where I said that the treasure chest is 19 mp's away and you countered that you would need 21 mp's to open the door after getting that chest. You established the condition that it had to be completed in one turn after I said "run in, grab the treasure, and run out", even though all I said was that the treasure was within starting mp range on many maps, and I never said that they would have to leave immediately after. Run in, grab the treasure, and run out is a really non-technical, non turn-limited statement. An idiom, if you will. You assumed there was a condition that fatigue upgrades were not necessary after I said that you could reach treasure chests with 19 mp's on most levels. I was saying that it's so easy to grab the treasure chests quickly that it can be done in 1 turn on most dungeons without fatigue upgrades. How that became the new bar to reach for taking treasure chests and escaping the dungeon I still don't quite understand. In short, Remy asserted that you could take the treasure, get the glyph, kill the boss, and leave the level in two turns copper. You said that was laughable. I said that you can grab the glyph and treasure in the first turn on most levels with starting stats, implying that Remy wasn't talking out of his ass, and you suddenly started talking about this single turn nonsense. You said it isn't feasible to take down maps in copper in two turns on page 2. That's wrong. You perverted my arguments to apply crazy limits to what everyone else is saying. Then you used an exasperated tone of typing to tell Remy that I had established some crazy limits on what he was trying to prove even though I never did and he actually proved you could do what you had called laughable back on page 2. Not only that, but you told Remy that he wasn't the one who proposed the speedrun of a dungeon; instead it was me for some reason, even though you rightly told me I didn't know what I was talking about the first time I posted. You really got lost somewhere during this thread. I suggest you reread the thread, since your memory might be playing tricks on you, as memories are wont to do.
  10. Ai, don't call ad hominem and then return the favor. That just gives Dashakan a reason to disregard your argument. Look, Dakashan, you're saying it's impossible to complete a dungeon in 2 turns given "general setups", right? Well, the trouble with the "general setup" idea is that heroes who know what they're doing know to flee the first 3-4 dungeons they see. It's just smart play. Then, with the 12-16+ conquest, treasures, and money they should have obtained from those levels, the next smart move is to turn your party into the kind of party that can speedrun dungeons. Thus, a "general setup" gets turned into a "unique situation" where you speedrun dungeons. As Feanor says, the Heroes have 9 dungeons to loot/flee in order to tune up for speed running. Given a draw 3-choose1 party of 4 heroes, if the heroes choose at least 1 runner character, you can tune your party to speedrun dungeons in copper in 2 turns. It's quite doable. The number of dungeon levels required to get the resources to hit that goal varies, but good hero play makes it highly likely, if not always possible. Keeping up a huge OL conquest dominance requires bad play on the part of the heroes. The number of heroes you can kill on turn 1 of a dungeon is very limited, and highly dependant on your starting 5 cards (4 if Wind Pact). If the heroes advance to level 2 or 3 without being prepared (money, treasures, upgrades), then you can kill them repeatedly and keep up the advantage. The OL can use some resources to stall the heroes: City capturing, putting a second danger in your deck, focused, monster upgrades. However, the game speed is highly determined by how fast the heroes move on turn 1. In Remy's example, if you drop a monster on the treasure chest, it's no big deal. Just send Nanok to town on turn 1. Then, you can use attacks from 2 heroes to take down the treasure chest monster and anyone the OL decides to put up as interference (since it only takes 3 monsters on that map). If Silhouette is killed, it makes it easier to complete the level in turn 2, since she would get all her fatigue back. If the OL concentrates on Silhouette and kills her, then the CT count comes out even, which still shows that good hero play prevents a huge disparity in conquest token totals, and it doesn't stop the heroes from finishing on turn 2. Why don't you set up the monsters and then post it here: we'll be glad to post a first turn, which you can counter with a first turn. Would that satisfy? Also, I'd like to start adding a "better OL starting hand" and seeing how it changes things. Giving the OL the Danger card is a little too strong, but how about a more reasonable hand? Spiders, gust, aim, Trapmaster, Crushing Block is a pretty common starting hand (after turn 1 draw) for me.
  11. Dashakan said: I'm not trolling you moron, I made a "claim" that I clearly said was hyperbole, I never tried to back it up. Other people made a "claim" that they then DID try to back up. Of course, they failed, since their claim was actually impossible. Go back and read the entire thread. So do you see the irony in using harsh words against someone calling you a troll? 'Cause I can't stop laughing. EDIT: Just so I'm not implying anything, I mean that you just got trolled...
  12. If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique
  13. Dashakan said: Thundercles said: *snip* Ha! That's an embarrassing mistake. Probably should have bothered reading more, but it was so easy to assume. Ok, more direct answer to your scoffing assertion that people who aren't on your side don't know wtf they're talking about: For The Heroes: Max MP's from Fatigue with 1 Fatigue potion = 2 x Fatigue - 1. Given starting fatigue values, this gives 5 - 9 mp's from fatigue on the starting turn of a dungeon for any given hero, which means: MP's for Battle: 5 - 9 MP's MP's for Advance: 8 - 14 MP's MP's for Run: 11 - 19 MP's Treasure is within starting Run MP range in: Levels 1, 2, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 22, ...I'm gonna stop counting because at least 1/3 of the levels have treasure accessible within the starting range of the heroes, and it's going to take me too long to count them.. Many more have a glyph within starting run range, and Acrobat/Skilled/Swift open even more possibilities. If you try to stop the heroes using strategically-placed monsters, they'll be within range of most heroes' advance actions, and several heroes' battle actions. I'm not sure where you got it in your head that it's unfeasible for the heroes to run in, grab the treasure chest (which will often drop a potion), and run out, but I'm quite sure you're mistaken. Have you tried being the heroes and running such a strategy? Might be enlightening. Ok, where to begin. First off, there are plenty of places, on most of those maps you mentioned to spawn monsters to block a hero getting to a chest, where the monsters could in no way be able to be hit by an advance or a battle action. It is really a VERY false assumption you made there, thinking the heroes can attack them off the bat. Secondly, of the maps you mentoioned, it is NOT possible to "run in, grab the treasure chest, and run out" on any of them except 12, where you would only be able to get one chest, and only if someone else has already killed the Master Giant (and again, if there aren't monsters in your way). The closest you come is if you somehow have 22 movement points AND acrobat on number 9, and even then on that map you would lose some major CT to the OL. If you can give me an actual turn by turn on any map where you can actually "grab the treasure and leave" in a turn go ahead, but on all the ones you entioned, it is not possible (with the caveat I mentioned for #12). You simply cannot play RtL that way at all, without a very specific map/item/skill/feat/hero combination that on occasion (I postulate less then 5%) MIGHT be able to do it IF the OL has no traps and no threat. I don't see what game you are playing where you think this is possible. Level 14, the Fountain of life. Hero 1 grabs treasure and fatigue potion using 12-13 mp's (depends on start location). Hero 2 grabs 2 treasure caches using 10-11 mp's. Heroes 3 and 4 either use blast to clear a path to the glyph or merely glyph out. OL kills as many heroes as he can. Heroes escape. This is the special case in the levels I listed, because there's basically nothing the OL can do about stopping the heroes from doing this if 14's the first floor. I guess the confusion was that you thought that the heroes grabbing the treasure need to escape unharmed in a single turn. That's usually not going to happen: the hero who grabs the treasure/glyph is usually very dead. This strategy relies on using potions and the town shop's sunburst rune (for path-clearing). The goal is to get tons of loot while losing only 4-8 conquest per level. As for level 12, I didn't bother to check the special rules: does the Giant need to be dead to collect the treasure? If not, sunburst rune clears central room, heroes grab chest, glyph, and money and flee the level. Splitting your 10 starting monsters to prevent the heroes fleeing to one side or the other opens up the possibility of bum-rushing the Giant. Level 9 needs 19 mp's with acrobat, not 22 (how did you get 22? Do you know that you can move diagonally across corners?). If you remember JitD quest 2, the Brothers Durnog, the only effective opening move is to race your fastest character to grab glyph behind a single brother on the first turn; if they survive, that's a bonus. The concept is similar here. Obviously, traps make the smash-and-grab strategy much harder: as the OL, you're usually powerless on level 1, but levels 2 and 3 are much harder to speed-run. No one would argue with that, but if you're fleeing level 1, you never see levels 2 and 3. WIth the right equipment, the shop Blast rune can be used to clear out paths very effectively. There's been several posts on BGG as well as in these forums about the speed-run strategy for heroes in Copper. Many others have gotten these strategies to work quite effectively. Conversely, I feel that this strategy takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because it boils RtL down concentrating on its basic mechanics instead of the hack-and-slash game it's presented as.
  14. Dashakan said: Thundercles said: Dashakan said: Big Remy said: 1) Its called Acrobat. 2) It is possible, because I've seen it happen. You keep on believing what you want. I'll keep on believing what I've experienced. Go find a map where you can do it. Then come back and tell me about it. I haven't looked at every one, but I haven't seen one where it is mathematically possible, without a specific set of feats/skills/potions. Evewn if it is possible on a couple maps, it certainly isn't feasible, and it isn't typically a viable option due to the stars needing to align. Dungeon levels simply aren't as easy for the heroes as a lot of people (you specifically) seem to think. A) You mentioned that silver monsters are enough to kill most heroes. This means you never play outside of the Copper campaign level, which means you're inexperienced with how powerful heroes can get in this game. B) Dungeons are stupidly easy for Gold Treasure-packing heroes. It's entirely feasible for a hero with 7 fatigue and 5 speed (attainable by Gold for most, Silver for the faster ones) to use a run action and apply all 17 (23 with 1 fatigue potion) mp's to the task of getting the treasure. Treasure chests drop potions, fueling this tactic. Blast-packing Mages kill everything normal you have on the board, and the remaining heroes proceed to destroy the Boss on most levels. This is not only feasible, it's typical. Feel free to try this at home using the gold start rules in the RtL rulebook. As for a level where it's possible: That one level with the respawning mad sorcerer boss. Whatever it's called, I forgot. C) Good job on keeping your heroes from escaping the Copper level of the campaign. That's some solid OL play, to be able to win so quickly and overpoweringly. Feel free to point your poor heroes here for tips on overcoming such a strong OL presence. D) That post I quoted? It makes you look ignorant and not a little bit boastful to anyone who's faced heroes holding Gold Treasures. Just mentioning it, if you care about that sort of thing. This entire thread is ABOUT copper level. Check the first post. All your points here have nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You do a good job of making yourself look dumb while trying to make me look "ignorant" though. Nest time pay attention to what your reading, and writing about please. Of course gold treasures change everything, but you can't have them in copper when you are fighting silvers. Ha! That's an embarrassing mistake. Probably should have bothered reading more, but it was so easy to assume. Ok, more direct answer to your scoffing assertion that people who aren't on your side don't know wtf they're talking about: For The Heroes: Max MP's from Fatigue with 1 Fatigue potion = 2 x Fatigue - 1. Given starting fatigue values, this gives 5 - 9 mp's from fatigue on the starting turn of a dungeon for any given hero, which means: MP's for Battle: 5 - 9 MP's MP's for Advance: 8 - 14 MP's MP's for Run: 11 - 19 MP's Treasure is within starting Run MP range in: Levels 1, 2, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 22, ...I'm gonna stop counting because at least 1/3 of the levels have treasure accessible within the starting range of the heroes, and it's going to take me too long to count them.. Many more have a glyph within starting run range, and Acrobat/Skilled/Swift open even more possibilities. If you try to stop the heroes using strategically-placed monsters, they'll be within range of most heroes' advance actions, and several heroes' battle actions. I'm not sure where you got it in your head that it's unfeasible for the heroes to run in, grab the treasure chest (which will often drop a potion), and run out, but I'm quite sure you're mistaken. Have you tried being the heroes and running such a strategy? Might be enlightening.
  15. Dashakan said: Big Remy said: 1) Its called Acrobat. 2) It is possible, because I've seen it happen. You keep on believing what you want. I'll keep on believing what I've experienced. Go find a map where you can do it. Then come back and tell me about it. I haven't looked at every one, but I haven't seen one where it is mathematically possible, without a specific set of feats/skills/potions. Evewn if it is possible on a couple maps, it certainly isn't feasible, and it isn't typically a viable option due to the stars needing to align. Dungeon levels simply aren't as easy for the heroes as a lot of people (you specifically) seem to think. A) You mentioned that silver monsters are enough to kill most heroes. This means you never play outside of the Copper campaign level, which means you're inexperienced with how powerful heroes can get in this game. B) Dungeons are stupidly easy for Gold Treasure-packing heroes. It's entirely feasible for a hero with 7 fatigue and 5 speed (attainable by Gold for most, Silver for the faster ones) to use a run action and apply all 17 (23 with 1 fatigue potion) mp's to the task of getting the treasure. Treasure chests drop potions, fueling this tactic. Blast-packing Mages kill everything normal you have on the board, and the remaining heroes proceed to destroy the Boss on most levels. This is not only feasible, it's typical. Feel free to try this at home using the gold start rules in the RtL rulebook. As for a level where it's possible: That one level with the respawning mad sorcerer boss. Whatever it's called, I forgot. C) Good job on keeping your heroes from escaping the Copper level of the campaign. That's some solid OL play, to be able to win so quickly and overpoweringly. Feel free to point your poor heroes here for tips on overcoming such a strong OL presence. D) That post I quoted? It makes you look ignorant and not a little bit boastful to anyone who's faced heroes holding Gold Treasures. Just mentioning it, if you care about that sort of thing.
  16. Antistone said: Of course, there are no rules for calculating distance across stairs, as far as I can tell. In particular, it's not clear whether a space adjacent to a staircase is also adjacent to the corresponding stair token, or 2 spaces away from it. I thought only the stairs were adjacent to each other, so that the space around one stair token is two spaces away from the other stair token.
  17. Veinman said: Thundercles said: +1 and + Wibble this is basically the ruling the rules provide: Traps cannot be overcome with Acrobat/Flying. the FAQ disagrees, but that specific disagreeing answer can go die in a fire until it manages to be correct about something. So do you feel that a flying character is vulnerable to a pit trap? I haven't in the past, but if they are supposed to fall in them, I'll happily make them do so. Uh, anyone feel free to correct me on this, but it's been my impression that the Spiked Pit card works on Flying creatures (heroes). After the card is played, they can ignore the pit to their heart's content. Pits are an obstacle, and fliers ignore them. I think there are ways for heroes to ignore the Spiked Pit trap card using a skill, but Flying and Acrobat are not that way.
  18. Antistone said: Big Remy said: I wouldn't think creatures with Fly would be affected by Sctything Blades, but I could be wrong. My thoughts: 1) The description of the Fly says it treats obstacles (which once the blades are out they are an obstacle as far as I know) as if they weren't there. So for flying monsters the blades don't even exist. The WoD rulebook has a section titled "New Props," which contains two subsections titled "Obstacles" and "Traps." This implies that anything listed in the "Traps" section (scything blades, dart fields, and rolling boulders) are not considered obstacles, and thus that Acrobat and Fly would not help with them. Additionally, rolling boulders say that they are treated as walls for purposes of movement, so if you decide that the "traps" also count as "obstacles," you have a contradiction, since you would have an obstacle (meaning that figures with Fly can move through it) that blocks movement as if it were a wall (which can't be passed with Fly). +1 and + Wibble this is basically the ruling the rules provide: Traps cannot be overcome with Acrobat/Flying. the FAQ disagrees, but that specific disagreeing answer can go die in a fire until it manages to be correct about something.
  19. Antistone said: Thundercles said: as for the splitting of obstacles....I'm not saying it should be done. I'm sayin that if you approach the confusion about obstacles from the standpoint of splitting them into two kinds of obstacle types, then all of the conflicts between the FAQ, Pre-RtL Props, and RtL-and-Beyond props makes sense. I know. I'm saying that they still don't make sense to me even if I imagine there are two categories of obstacles. You can try to explain your reasoning to me if you feel like it. Or not. oh, that's what you mean. yeah, I meant the existence of weirdness makes sense. The weirdness, I don't know, man. I don't get where they were going with it all either.
  20. edited because I hate this bb software and cranky cause sleepy
  21. Look, I asked this question:"do figures block LoS for the purposes of spawning?" The answer was never. I'm honestly too lazy to dig through my email and find it, but I posted it to the old boards and I'm positive on the subject. Villagers never block LoS for the purposes of spawning, according to the descent Designers. The fact is quite simple: we asked the question already. or at least I did. and the answer is no, they don't block LoS. just so's we're clear.
  22. The gathered list of answered questions, really. I submitted this particular question myself. I think the FAQ specifies villagers as figures when talking about crushing block vs RtL obstacles...
  23. Nightwolf629 said: A few questions I cannot find an answer to in any FAQs, 1) The basic question is: Does Aura work through a closed door? But please consider this scenario: A hero with Aura 4 (Shiver) stands next to a closed door (to an area that has already been revealed). On the other side of the door, a monster moves adjecent to Shiver (but with the closed door between them), then it opens the door. Would the monster take damage when it moved into the space? After it opened the door? Or would it take no effect from the aura at all? 2) Does the Spiritwalker Skill card require LoS to the ally you are attacking through? 3) Is there any way a hero can break down a door so that it cannot be used again? I know that there is a skill card that allows you to do this for 0 movement, but I was wondering if there is a way to do this via prolonged actions or by spending extra movement? 4) I read in an FAQ that Furr the Spirit Wolf must be within 5 squares and LoS to the owner in order to attack. Does this apply to movement as well? Or can Furr be moved around the dungeon, even if the owner is in town? ...this is all i can think of for now. Thank you 1) No idea. Most things cannot go through doors, so I believe Aura wouldn't either, but no one's asked this question before 2) No, you don't need LoS to the friendly figure. 3) No, Brawny is the only way to destroy doors forever that the heroes posess 4) Only applies to attacking with Furr. The owner can move Furr whenever.
  24. Villagers are figures. Figures do not block LoS for the purposes of spawning. Thus, villagers do not block LoS for the purposes of spawning.
  25. Antistone said: The "relevant obstacles" list in the FAQ is specifically only listing obstacles that prevent the use of the (revised) Crushing Block trap card. It's still a fairly crumby list, but it's not necessarily incorrect for what it claims to be. And I doubt that splitting obstacles into "movement obstacles" and "LoS obstacles" really helps. The problem is with all the various rules that specifically trigger on or ignore "obstacles" (spawning, fly, acrobat, precision, etc.). It's possible that the lists should be different for each rule, but having separate lists for "movement" and "LoS" purposes isn't likely to help any more than any other arbitrary division, considering that it doesn't really matter whether or not fog counts as an obstacle for purposes of Fly. The Crushing Block trap card is necessarily incorrect for what it claims to be, because it implies that you can use Crushing Blocks next to Pits and Lava, which you couldn't do before and can exploit instant-kill pits to destroy heroes (since the OL defines where the hero is placed). There's several quests that have special cases for Pits, Lava, Corrupted Terrain etc., so it's hard to call that rule anything but wrong. as for the splitting of obstacles....I'm not saying it should be done. I'm sayin that if you approach the confusion about obstacles from the standpoint of splitting them into two kinds of obstacle types, then all of the conflicts between the FAQ, Pre-RtL Props, and RtL-and-Beyond props makes sense. I'm not advocating a split: I'm saying it appears to exist in the designer's intentions, despite being absent from the rules. I'm arguing said appearance from the point of view that obstacle appears to mean different things based whether you check the FAQ, check the rulebooks, or submit the question to the designers. It all comes down to the fact that we keep having to write "obstacle for the purposes of ___", since the word is very much ill-defined.
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