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The role of the Tactical Marine?


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#61 DavinHeracles

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

It can be sometimes. My GM started us out with 15 renown on the basis that we were Space Marines in the Deathwath. We had to have been known for something. Also helps when you start out as a Tyrannic War Vet and get an additional d10 renown. I miss that guy. His heroic sacrifive is an awsome memory. Sucked that it came so early but my librarian is so much more awsome.

Edited by DavinHeracles, 28 July 2014 - 02:30 PM.


#62 Lord Master Igneus

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 11:00 AM

 

... Never played Deathwatch until now so no idea how good stuff that does stuff to Hordes is because I've never seen hordes in action

 

Trust me, Horde-busting is a Devastator's primary purpose in life. Sure, once in a while you may need them to introduce a high-priority objective to Mr. Lascannon, but on a typical mission (especially at lower Ranks), de-Magintuding Hordes is Job 1.

 

 

This is incredibly true, Devastators with Heavy Bolters will utterly devastate hordes. Its probably one of the more straightforward specialties you can take, most of the time you'll be pointing at things and shooting them. You'll probably be able to have the most wounds compared to any other specialties as well.



#63 Lord Master Igneus

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 11:07 AM

 

 

 

I really meant that they are the ultimate clean slate.  With all the myriad Skills and Talents, coupled with Chapter Traits, one can craft and built a Career Path to becoming whatever one wishes their Marine to ultimately become.  A Close Quarters Enthusiast or Ranged Marksman, a Lore, Tech or Medic Assistant/Backup or Driver/Pilot or whatever.  They have the fewest restrictions compared to the other "Specialist" Classes.

 

That's my plan. I'm making a tactical marine that's focusing on driving atm (ravenwing veteran), so I've invested everything I had into being a good driver (maxed out agility) and shooter (maxed out BS, Bolter Mastery). I was just thinking about what role to fill when I'm not driving/shooting from a bike, and I was a bit worried that I'd be slightly behind every other party member (ranged focused techmarine, devastator, assault marine and apothecary).

 

 

 

With its flexibility and general lack of restrictions (having access to most Talents and Skills that Devs and Assault do) I've always thought about the Tactical similarly.

That sounds overly optimistic. Tacticals get most useful shooting Talents and barely anything for melee (and what they do get for melee is ridiculously late in the ranks). They are no less restricted than any other Specialty in the game, and trying to build them into anything other than a straight-up shooter with some command stuff on the side will require relying heavily on Chapter advances, advanced Specialties, Deeds and Honors.

 

 

And I know Rites of Battle was from a while ago, but I thought the Ultra Mk.IX rifle was pretty much the top of the line for sniper rifles in Deathwatch. Even though it doesn't get bonuses for being a Bolter.

Not by a long shot. (Pun not intended).

 

Going by errata stats:

 

Stalker Bolter: Range 200m Damage d10+9 Pen 4 Clip 24 Reload Full Qualities: Accurate, Tearing

Ultra Rifle: Range 250m Damage d10+4 Pen 2 Clip 5 Reload Full Qualities: Accurate, Felling (1), Toxic

 

Slightly better range, abysmal ammo capacity, worse Penetration. Felling will about make up for the damage difference, but only against enemies that have Unnatural Toughness (admittedly, quite a lot in DW, but it will still rarely come out on top damage-wise). Toxic is rather weak considering it doesn't affect Tyranids and Daemons at all and it's almost impossible for enemy Astartes to fail the roll.

 

That's all before you even consider all the awesome kinds of ammo you can put in Stalker:

 

Stalker - absolutely silent with no drawbacks

Kraken - up that range to 300m, blowing Ultra out of the water, and increase the Pen to 8 (what power armor again?)

Hellfire - ignore Natural Armor altogether (Tyranids can suck it!) and inflict Righteous Fury on 9 and 10

Vengeance - Pen 9 and Felling (1), need I say more?

Witch Bolts - mess up psykers and daemons something fierce.

 

Combine it with Bolter Mastery and that free clip of special ammo Tacmarines get for free each mission, and it's not even a competition, Stalker Bolter is clearly the superior sniping implement for Tacticals (and for anyone else, for that matter).

 

 

On that note if you're a Raptor you are practically built for sniping, and with your chapter trapping... dear god you'll be the best possible sniper.



#64 Dr. Quinn

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 08:29 PM

Yep, as has been indicated, I see tac marines as the "I cover up the weaknesses of my team" role.

Are they better at demagging hordes than the devastator?  Nope, but they're not much worse.

Are they better at melee than the devastator?  You bet.

Are they as survivable and versatile in weaponry as the techmarine?  Nope, but they're not much worse.

Are they better at command than the techmarine?  You bet.

Are they better than the assault marine at melee?  Nope, but they're not *as* much worse as everyone else.

Are they better at ranged combat than the assault marine?  Oh, you bet.

Are they better at healing than the apothecary?  Not even close, no one can even fill that role, it's bad.

Are they better at *everything else* than the apothecary?  OMG yes.  Once again, it's bad.

And finally, let's mention the librarian as little as possible, everyone knows they're broken and all kinds of OP.

 

So if you have someone who is the second best at everything, they have a place on any team.  You could have a team of all tactical marines, and they would do just fine.  The same is not true of anything else except Librarians, and we don't talk about them.  In any given situation, they will never be as *disadvantaged* by the circumstances as others, which counts for a lot.  If I was designing the perfect team, I would take one of every class, to be sure, but if I was missing any roles, I would feel totally comfortable with replacing them by doubling up or tripling up on tactical marines.

 

In terms of the sniper role, I don't know, I feel like the devastator or techmarine specialties could also fill that role, I don't think it's uniquely suited to tac marines.  However, if you're talking about the ultimate one man army, killmarine style, there is no doubt that tac marines are it, as there is no one who leaves less slack to be picked up by their teammates.



#65 Lord Master Igneus

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 08:30 AM

Yep, as has been indicated, I see tac marines as the "I cover up the weaknesses of my team" role.

Are they better at demagging hordes than the devastator?  Nope, but they're not much worse.

Are they better at melee than the devastator?  You bet.

Are they as survivable and versatile in weaponry as the techmarine?  Nope, but they're not much worse.

Are they better at command than the techmarine?  You bet.

Are they better than the assault marine at melee?  Nope, but they're not *as* much worse as everyone else.

Are they better at ranged combat than the assault marine?  Oh, you bet.

Are they better at healing than the apothecary?  Not even close, no one can even fill that role, it's bad.

Are they better at *everything else* than the apothecary?  OMG yes.  Once again, it's bad.

And finally, let's mention the librarian as little as possible, everyone knows they're broken and all kinds of OP.

 

So if you have someone who is the second best at everything, they have a place on any team.  You could have a team of all tactical marines, and they would do just fine.  The same is not true of anything else except Librarians, and we don't talk about them.  In any given situation, they will never be as *disadvantaged* by the circumstances as others, which counts for a lot.  If I was designing the perfect team, I would take one of every class, to be sure, but if I was missing any roles, I would feel totally comfortable with replacing them by doubling up or tripling up on tactical marines.

 

In terms of the sniper role, I don't know, I feel like the devastator or techmarine specialties could also fill that role, I don't think it's uniquely suited to tac marines.  However, if you're talking about the ultimate one man army, killmarine style, there is no doubt that tac marines are it, as there is no one who leaves less slack to be picked up by their teammates.

 

An important thing to consider is the chapter of said Tac. Marine, and unless you're a wolf-scout, you'll probably want to have your fellowship as high as possible before spending XP on fellowship improvement if you plan on being the leader or using squad mode a lot. Their solo and squad mode abilities are very useful and can impact your playstyle too. I'd suggest looking to see if your choices for chapter have advancements and abilities that make them better in ranged or melee combat, or another role. Once you've got that figured out I'd recommend leaning a bit towards melee or ranged depending on how suited you are for whichever type of combat.



#66 Benu5

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:30 AM

I had exactly the same problem, but with an Assault Marine. Instead of buying Ravenwing Veteran, buy Initiate of Secrets (which can only be bought at creation), then spend or save the remaining XP, and buy Ravenwing Veteran (which can be bought at any time during Rank 1) later.

 

You have 3000xp before Rank 2, and Ravenwing Veteran isn't just a free bike, it's also Mental Fortitude, a +20 to resist insanity, corruption and resisiting mind altering effects, which is pretty amazing, that's a +30 to resist psychic powers.



#67 Morangias

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:20 AM

Are they better at melee than the devastator?  You bet.

Actually, I wouldn't bet. Stalwart Defense is a heck of a melee buff, and Devastators can get it before any other specialization.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#68 Dr. Quinn

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:00 PM

 

Are they better at melee than the devastator?  You bet.

Actually, I wouldn't bet. Stalwart Defense is a heck of a melee buff, and Devastators can get it before any other specialization.

 

 

Originally I was going to argue this point, but the more I looked at it the more I agree.  I'll not say Devastators are better at melee than Tac Marines, with their insanely expensive Weapon Skill improvements (and having to use non-standard weaponry loadouts to take advantage of that melee buff), but ultimately both Tac Marines and Devastators would need to be built "off type", relying on chapter abilities, deeds, and / or advanced specialties to really excel at melee.  Conversely, specialty ammo matters a *lot* more for inflicting magnitude damage on hordes than I had initially thought, and both of them get storm of iron at the same rank, so the point that Devastators are better at that than Tactical Marines in dealing magnitude damage to hordes is certainly arguable as well.  There is a lot more overlap between those two specialties than I feel there should be, but oh well.  And how, other than because FFG hates Techmarines, can you possibly justify Devastator Marines getting Stalwart Defense but Techmarines not getting it?

 

Finally, what really matters, is that I *love* your signature, and would like to steal it for use with my Iron Hands Techmarine.  Is it from anything in particular?



#69 Morangias

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:04 AM

Admittedly, both Tacs and Devs are piss-poor when it comes to melee, and both have to scrounge all available sources for every last bit of close combat oomph if they want to be any good at it.

 

It just so happens that one of the best of such "poverty melee builds" is a Space Wolf Devastator abusing the Stalwart Defense + Counterattack combo. Chainswords are cheap to requisition. Also, the punishing cost of WS advancements is somewhat offset by cheap Strength advancements, as the extra damage might partially make up for less frequent hits.

 

As for the signature, it's from this song. Not sure whether the authors took it from some 40k source or just made it up, but I'm pretty sure they don't mind people using it.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#70 Aedwynn

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:34 AM

A few notes to topic.

a) Stalker rounds do not explode, they use liquid metal core to do damage.

b) My game history tell me that all sniper weapons in DW suck big time. I was amazed to learn that Stalker Boltgun is outdone in damage/turn by Storm bolter vs even Tyranid Warriors, even using standard bolter rounds.

c) I think TacMarine is good in terms that he can get a lot of additional stuff like demolition and such. Even if you have someone who's better, he can help, making tests more easy.

Plus, some advanced specs can turn him in quite a monster.

F.e. Tyrannic War Veteran Tac marine, continuing as champion/ honour guard:

+ Int/Per bonus to hits inflicted vs horde with every attack( how about single bolter shot inflicting 9 hits?)

+ can parry Horde melee attacks

+ can craft poisons working on Tyranids

+ gets n rerols for any test with successive tactics test at combat start

+ master crafted wargear upgrade for free

+ artificer PA

+ melee talents of assault

+ and much more

And all that being a logical progression totally lore-wise...



#71 Lord Master Igneus

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:38 AM

A few notes to topic.

a) Stalker rounds do not explode, they use liquid metal core to do damage.

b) My game history tell me that all sniper weapons in DW suck big time. I was amazed to learn that Stalker Boltgun is outdone in damage/turn by Storm bolter vs even Tyranid Warriors, even using standard bolter rounds.

c) I think TacMarine is good in terms that he can get a lot of additional stuff like demolition and such. Even if you have someone who's better, he can help, making tests more easy.

Plus, some advanced specs can turn him in quite a monster.

F.e. Tyrannic War Veteran Tac marine, continuing as champion/ honour guard:

+ Int/Per bonus to hits inflicted vs horde with every attack( how about single bolter shot inflicting 9 hits?)

+ can parry Horde melee attacks

+ can craft poisons working on Tyranids

+ gets n rerols for any test with successive tactics test at combat start

+ master crafted wargear upgrade for free

+ artificer PA

+ melee talents of assault

+ and much more

And all that being a logical progression totally lore-wise...

 

With the right Raptors trappings a Stalker Boltgun with Kraken rounds can punch through most AP, thanks to the attachment that adds your Perception bonus to your weapons AP, so you could get at the most 15 AP on your Stalker. And you can also get Marksman right off the bat.



#72 Adeptus-B

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 02:22 PM

I think the unfortunate limits within the Specialty Skill lists in DW1 are the main reason why I would be interested in seeing a DW2 (-also to reign in Psy powers, but that's a topic for a different thread). Skill combos that allow Tacs to be more tactically flexible are sorely needed, and I would love to see Apothecaries get access to skills that allow them to serve as a Kill-Team's 'science officer' when they are not in combat.



#73 DavinHeracles

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 07:59 PM

I dont know with the rate that they are going I dont think we are going to see DW 2.0 anytime soon. But I agree with Adeptus-B. Rounding out the Tac marine and Apothecary would be a nice addition. And fixing the broken Storm Bolter would be nice.

Edited by DavinHeracles, 03 November 2014 - 08:00 PM.