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#21 Cynical Cat

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:30 PM

Lynata said:

 

Cynical Cat said:

In all the 40K games rough power level is about the same and there is no reason to assume that it will be different from Black Crusade.

Actually, Space Marines from Deathwatch are superior to the Space Marines from Dark Heresy / Rogue Trader. That said, if Black Crusade does the Chaos Marines in a vein similar to DH/RT, I'd say it should be no problem to get a mixed group together. Naturally, certain character types will lend themselves far more to combat or sorcery than others, but with focus always comes a price - and whilst I'm sure that a mere cultist won't be able to boss a CSM around, I'm pretty convinced that FFG can come up with rules to make him a useful party member. And in the end that's all that matters.

And to be honest, I'd think a group with mixed hierarchy levels would be far more interesting than 4-6 Overlords all competing with each other about who is more awesome and get's to have the say. Rogue Trader and Ascension already give good examples on how to do it better.

 

 

That's not true.  There's first of all one Space Marine stated out in all of DH/RT and that guy (who is Deathwatch) is from the second product published, which was written before they even had the corruption rules finalized.  Those aren't the only thing from that adventure that are revised.  The splinter rifles in RT have different stats as well.  The only thing he's an example of is the early guess work for what Space Marines should stat out to be.

Ascension and Rogue Trader have different levels of authority within the group, but the characters are all roughly equal in power level.  There are no rookie guardsmen in Ascension or Rogue Trader.  Some characters are better leaders and some are better fighters but they are all high powered.  There's going to be more variation in Black Crusade than in say Deathwatch where everyone is a Marine, but like Rogue Trader and Ascension everyone is going to be at the same general tier.



#22 Lynata

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:51 PM

Cynical Cat said:

There's first of all one Space Marine stated out in all of DH/RT and that guy (who is Deathwatch) is from the second product published, which was written before they even had the corruption rules finalized.

There's also the Angelus gun from IH which seems to strenghten the idea of 2d10 as proper Marine boltgun damage, though. DW's weapon damage is worlds apart (for no real reason given unless this is another retcon), as are its enemies, making it extremely difficult for DH/RT characters to "fit in". The game just takes place on a totally different narrative style (more "legendary" than "realistic") which is fine when you only have Astartes, but for Black Crusade you'd have to have all party members at least somewhat comparable. It would kinda suck if only a CSM's guns would be able to do damage (or, if enemies are scaled to "lower grade weapons", simply be overpowered in comparison).

 

Cynical Cat said:

There's going to be more variation in Black Crusade than in say Deathwatch where everyone is a Marine, but like Rogue Trader and Ascension everyone is going to be at the same general tier.

I think so, too. This would mean to go back to the weapon damage as given in DH/RT, for example 2d10 for a CSM's boltgun. He'd still stand out as simply being insanely hard to kill (serving as the group's "tank" so to say), and likely a monster in close combat. Not to mention that 2d10 still means a double chance to trigger Righteous Fury.

Or would that be Immoral Fury? :P

Anyways, given that Black Crusade seems to be designed for a mixed party of all vocations from the get-go, I also expect it to be far more compatible to DH and RT than DW. Maybe it will even include instructions on how to convert DH/RT characters by making them become Corrupted? Both games already have mechanics that make characters start walking on the path of damnation, after all.



#23 MILLANDSON

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:53 PM

I'm not allowed to say much, but since my group contains both Chaos Space Marines and normal humans, and they've all been pretty relevant and, whilst being good in their own areas, don't overshadow each other too much, being a normal human is an entirely viable option to a Chaos Space Marine. In fact, depending on your campaign, it'd be the CSM that wouldn't be especially viable (unless they're Alpha Legion, do you see them being able to pull off political manipulation in a Hive like a human would be capable of?)

Basically, what I mean to say is, you don't need to be a Chaos Space Marine to be a viable character.


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#24 Lynata

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:27 PM

That's what I was hoping for.

Man, I can't wait to hear more details about the possibilities.



#25 Cynical Cat

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:42 PM

Lynata said:

Cynical Cat said:

There's first of all one Space Marine stated out in all of DH/RT and that guy (who is Deathwatch) is from the second product published, which was written before they even had the corruption rules finalized.

There's also the Angelus gun from IH which seems to strenghten the idea of 2d10 as proper Marine boltgun damage, though. DW's weapon damage is worlds apart (for no real reason given unless this is another retcon), as are its enemies, making it extremely difficult for DH/RT characters to "fit in". The game just takes place on a totally different narrative style (more "legendary" than "realistic") which is fine when you only have Astartes, but for Black Crusade you'd have to have all party members at least somewhat comparable. It would kinda suck if only a CSM's guns would be able to do damage (or, if enemies are scaled to "lower grade weapons", simply be overpowered in comparison).

 

Cynical Cat said:

There's going to be more variation in Black Crusade than in say Deathwatch where everyone is a Marine, but like Rogue Trader and Ascension everyone is going to be at the same general tier.

I think so, too. This would mean to go back to the weapon damage as given in DH/RT, for example 2d10 for a CSM's boltgun. He'd still stand out as simply being insanely hard to kill (serving as the group's "tank" so to say), and likely a monster in close combat. Not to mention that 2d10 still means a double chance to trigger Righteous Fury.

Or would that be Immoral Fury? :P

Anyways, given that Black Crusade seems to be designed for a mixed party of all vocations from the get-go, I also expect it to be far more compatible to DH and RT than DW. Maybe it will even include instructions on how to convert DH/RT characters by making them become Corrupted? Both games already have mechanics that make characters start walking on the path of damnation, after all.

 

The Angelus is clearly based on the early stats for the Space Marines.  The hellguns from Inquisitor's Handbook are also anemic compared to later weapons.  Again, an early (still over at Black Library) publication with later changes.  

Now the Space Marine is going to be the likely leader for personal combat badassery with others having sorcery/social skills/leadership abilities/whatever to compensate but let's remember how nasty this stuff can be at this level especially when heretical and chaos items are thrown in.  A melta is still a melta, some of the xenos tech items in RT are horrifically powerful, and then there are chaos/demon weapons. 



#26 Lynata

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:18 AM

Cynical Cat said:

The Angelus is clearly based on the early stats for the Space Marines.  The hellguns from Inquisitor's Handbook are also anemic compared to later weapons.  Again, an early (still over at Black Library) publication with later changes.
Changes in effect for DW, which has an entirely different range of enemies, equipment, even mechanics, and takes place on an entirely different "level of awesomenes". I do expect the CSMs from Black Crusade to be far more compatible to other products of the franchise. I've already stated why DW stats and mechanics won't work - unless, of course, BC also pushes "normal" characters to the level of DW. Considering the broader scope of Black Crusade I would not expect this, though.



#27 Cynical Cat

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 11:28 AM

The changes for weapons and equipment and rules presented in Purge the Unclean and Inquisitor's Handbook are also in effect for DH and RT as I've clearly shown.  Why would the game designers feel compelled to stay with early design work when they've already overridden it?   Deathwatch level stats will work just fine and not be overpowered as long as PCs gain access to high powered gear/chaos gifts/sorcery as well.  No one doubts that the CSMs will be the kings of personal combat but there are scary, scary weapons in both DH and RT that are useable by unaugmented humans and that's without touching the daemon weapons or guns loaded with daemon bullets.



#28 Lynata

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 12:01 PM

Cynical Cat said:

The changes for weapons and equipment and rules presented in Purge the Unclean and Inquisitor's Handbook are also in effect for DH and RT as I've clearly shown.

Come again? The 2d10 have not been errata'ed, as far as I'm aware. What is it that you've shown?

Cynical Cat said:

Why would the game designers feel compelled to stay with early design work when they've already overridden it?

Because there was nothing that was actually overridden for DH/RT and these early designs work just fine where they are. DW however seems to take place on a different narrative scale, which is why it doesn't work as well in unison with the other games (or rather the characters thereof). Its weapons (whose different stats do not make sense in-universe) are scaled for a completely different kind of opponents, who are in turn scaled to be a challenge to a team of Veteran Marines using devastating Squad Mode mechanics. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

Of course it is just as well possible that Black Crusade will "buff" characters to superhuman levels via Chaos Gifts as you have mentioned (and as I've already theorized as an alternative earlier), but given that this will eliminate the opportunity to play normal ("tainted") characters I do hope that this is not the case. Extensive modifications to the body are something for later ranks in the game - just like in WHFRP's "Tome of Corruption" where you did not start out as a tentacled arch-heretic but had to work your way up. Plus, I'd like to think that Black Crusade will be more "down to earth" again, anyways.



#29 Cynical Cat

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 07:44 PM

The Corruption Rules in DH and everything else are different than those in Purge the Unclean.

The Splinter weapon rules in Into the Storm are different.

Hellguns designs post IH are different.

So yes they have changed things a number of things since that time.  So have bolter weapons and for good reason.  2d10 isn't high powered enough to be very effective against even Purge the Unclean level Marine, who are almost as tough as the ones in DW.  They don't have to formally errata Purge the Unclean, which was written before DH was finished.  If they want bolters to be reasonably effective against Marine level enemies (as the setting and game balance require)  then Space Marine bolters have to be better than 2d10.

If Traitor Marines are viable characters, and everything indicates they are, then they are likely to be the leading personal combat class.  Other classes have to be powerful enough to participate in some meaningful way in combat just as in RT the Arch-Militant is the best at personal scale shooting other classes aren't worthless in fights that will challenge the Arch-Militant.



#30 Lynata

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:17 PM

Cynical Cat said:

So yes they have changed things a number of things since that time.  So have bolter weapons and for good reason.

I know things have changed between DH publications, I just would not be sure as to whether changes between the different lines of the RPG would or should carry over into the other. Or are you implying the Angelus from IH now does 2d10+5 damage?

 

Cynical Cat said:

2d10 isn't high powered enough to be very effective against even Purge the Unclean level Marine, who are almost as tough as the ones in DW.

There I do agree, but this is a general problem with both bolt weapons (whose raw damage seems a tad too similar to lasguns) as well as the application of flat multipliers (that make for overpowered Marines whose bodies rival the armour they wear in terms of protection). Lasguns are just as ineffective as non-Astartes boltguns against Marines, which clearly shouldn't be the case according to the fluff. Actually, the fluff before this RPG did not even know a difference between Marine and non-Marine boltguns - which kinda makes sense, given that they always fired the same caliber of ammunition and only ever differed in size/weight/durability/reliability.

From what I've read, the Horde rules in DW are supposed to deal with this issue, and make (to go back to the earlier example) both lasguns as well as non-Astartes bolters viable and threatening weapons against even player Marines again when used by groups of NPCs - but given that people won't play only CSMs in Black Crusade, this "workaround" will not be applicable here. In my opinion, it would be best for the entire franchise if FFG would just redesign the entire idea of Unnatural Stats (I've already heard two excellent ideas for alternatives on this forum) and make everything fit together without having to apply some patchwork extra rules to something to render it a worthy opponent. Black Crusade, with its aim to bring Chaos Marines and "normal" cultists together in a single group, could well be the first step on this bumpy but promising road.

It's a question of preferences, too, of course - as I already mentioned earlier, I would consider it somewhat lame if the entire party would be forced to start as Chaos Champions with half a dozen mutations already instead of working their way up the food chain similar to, say, DH.



#31 Agmar_Strick

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 10:42 PM

 

I actually couldn't give a fig about chaos space marines, I'm much more interested in the low end of the power scale, lowly cultists and petty mutants struggling to survive.  I guess I'm hoping the power level range isn't Ascension to Over 9000.



#32 No.12

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 11:48 PM

Hi,

Ditto. My feeling is if FFG set the power level of BC to start lower you can still create more experienced characters if you wish to play a higher power game. Its much much harder to create weaker characters than the rulebook supports, in fact might as well roll up some hive mutants/adepts from DH and start there.

I hope the relative level is roughly equivalent to RT, a middle ground set up. Seems unlikely with CSMs but I can hope...

I dont want to start an arguement here but it appears FFG create more problems with the mechanics on higher power games (Psionics, Bolters, Unnaturals etc). I realise the focus on each game is different but Ascension/Deathwatch both seemed to create alot of debate on the forums about broken mechanics. Our DH game had a great story arc but when the PCs ascended the balance of tension on those vital dice rolls started to disappear due to the extreme success rate of high level characters. Admittedly this opinion is probably biased by my own tastes and no offense is intended to gamers who enjoy high power games.

Maybe Millandson or others could check their NDAs and a clue or two over non CSM options...? (joking)

Either way BC looks like a refreshing change of approach.

 



#33 Cynical Cat

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:06 AM

The Corruption rules changed between finishing Purge the Unclean and the final version of Dark Heresy, so yes the rules have changed within the same game line.  Hellguns in Ascension have significant differences to those in Inquisitor Handbook.  Back when the IH and Purge the Unclean were written they weren't writing a game where Space Marines shot each other up with bolt guns.  If the Angelus was written now I would expect it to do 2d10+5 damage.  I don't disagree with you on the issue of the problems created by Unnatural Characteristics and the damage system.  That's undoubtedly the reason that Space Marine bolt guns were jumped up to 2d10+5 damage because they realized 2d10 wasn't enough.  The Marine in Purge the Unclean could have sucked down a huge number of 2d10 damage rounds before falling. 

 

The fluff before the RPG definitely did know the difference between Space Marine and non Space Marine bolt guns.  The Eisenhorn books, for example, feature them and their are references in the 3rd edition 40K game books. 

The senior cultists in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books are quite formidable.  While not physically the equal of a Traitor Marine they possessed sorcery, resources, skills, and training (not to mention the ability to actually hide among the ordinary population)  that made them dangerous enemies.  Such figures, skilled and ambitious cultists who are reaching towards the upper tiers of power, would make excellent characters.



#34 Cifer

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:50 AM

 If the Angelus was written now I would expect it to do 2d10+5 damage.

I wouldn't. The Angelus still has an important limitation: It's fired by a mortal and has to make all kinds of compromises for that in order to not break his arm.



#35 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:46 AM

No.12 said:

 

 I realise the focus on each game is different but Ascension/Deathwatch both seemed to create alot of debate on the forums about broken mechanics. Our DH game had a great story arc but when the PCs ascended the balance of tension on those vital dice rolls started to disappear due to the extreme success rate of high level characters. Admittedly this opinion is probably biased by my own tastes and no offense is intended to gamers who enjoy high power games.

 

 

Two things.

When most people scream about things being Broken, they are generally saying "This isn't what I wanted it to be."

Ascension level games shouldn't be about the dice rolling. At that level you are movers and shakers on a galactic scale. If you succeed you do great things, if you fail planets should burn. I think a lot of people, players and GM's alike, have a difficult time with the transition to that kind of play.

 

Back to the topic.

My hope is that they cover the gamut from low level cultists all the way through playable demon princes and chosen of chaos. This would be an enormous task to pull off, but I think it's doable.



#36 Khouri

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:21 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

My hope is that they cover the gamut from low level cultists all the way through playable demon princes and chosen of chaos. This would be an enormous task to pull off, but I think it's doable.

Ditto. It certainly won't be an easy task but a consolidated tier of different power levels would be excellent.



#37 No.12

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 04:49 AM

Hi,

@ItsUncertainWho:

Yes i agree, claims of brokenness may well be caused by some disappointment in a game. I do understand the focus on ascended plots, but at some level dice rolling should be involved alongside character decisions to determine success/failure? As I mentioned, I'm not trying to suggest high power games are worse, just that its possibly harder to get the balance right.

And I wholeheartedly agree, a range of power levels from BC would be fantastic. This was actually my first thought on reading this announcement.



#38 Lynata

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:56 AM

Cynical Cat said:

The fluff before the RPG definitely did know the difference between Space Marine and non Space Marine bolt guns. The Eisenhorn books, for example, feature them and their are references in the 3rd edition 40K game books.

What exactly -is- the difference, then? The Munitorum Manual from 2008 makes it clear that there is only one kind of boltgun, used by both normal people and Marines. The book merely points out that, due to the immense recoil, the full auto setting should never be used by anyone but a Space Marine or at least someone with an extremely stocky build. In the 40k TT rules, "normal" bolters also do just as much damage as Marine ones - and whilst the TT isn't really capable of comparisons due to its limited scale, the "mortal" bolters from DH would transition to lasgun damage in the tabletop. And did not Eisenhorn get a bolt pistol from a Space Marine?

 

Cifer said:

I wouldn't. The Angelus still has an important limitation: It's fired by a mortal and has to make all kinds of compromises for that in order to not break his arm.

What compromise, exactly? The gun fires the exact same ammunition - a miniature missile that has its own rocket motor. How could it logically be any weaker than the same bullet fired from an Astartes bolter?

 

Back to topic: Given that this is an entirely new line for the RPG I think we will receive several books - perhaps Black Crusade will have its own "Ascension" expansion, but start out on the lower end on the scale similar to DH/RT?



#39 Dulahan

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:19 AM

Those are really good points...



#40 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 10:34 AM

Lynata said:

What compromise, exactly? The gun fires the exact same ammunition - a miniature missile that has its own rocket motor. How could it logically be any weaker than the same bullet fired from an Astartes bolter?

To clarify, by exact same ammunition you mean same caliber. Ammunition of the same caliber for different weapons does not mean they are the same. I thought this had been clarified before.

By your logic a .50 AE round for a pistol is the exact same as a .50 BMG round for a heavy machine gun and a .50 flint lock round.

They are all .50 caliber but vastly different in performance. All of them can slide down the same barrel, but none of them can be fired from the same weapon.