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"Defender" is a misnomer


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#41 Hobojebus

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:51 PM

 

Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.



#42 Mikael Hasselstein

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:51 PM

When I take an action I typically consider the round, rather than the individual attacks. So what I mean is that--with 3 Agility--the chance I'll be locked out of using focus is actually similar to oreven lower than the chance that I'll be able to use it to generate 2+ evades.*

Or, to put it another way, the evade action is like making a personal rule in blackjack that you'll never hit on a 12 or more because you could go bust. It's true, but it doesn't optimize your results over the long term.

 

Yes, of course. I see what you're saying. The focus is certainly more versatile, as I said earlier. I thought we were talking in a purely defensive calculation.



#43 Rithrin

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:57 PM

 

 

Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.

 

 

Right, I'm saying that if Wingman A has a target lock on Bogey B, then Vessery focuses, gets a free target lock and proceeds to destroy Bogey B (Not unlikely with a F+TL 4 dice attack), Wingman A can no longer use his target lock - the ship is gone!

 

Certainly on the first round of shooting and against a Large ship or B-Wing, Vessery will generate a free action, but most rounds he is action neutral. Whichever ship is supplying him with the target lock is simply using their action to make sure Vessery's early-in-the-round 4 dice shot is maximized.


Edited by Rithrin, 11 July 2014 - 02:58 PM.


#44 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:29 PM

When I take an action I typically consider the round, rather than the individual attacks. So what I mean is that--with 3 Agility--the chance I'll be locked out of using focus is actually similar to oreven lower than the chance that I'll be able to use it to generate 2+ evades.*

Or, to put it another way, the evade action is like making a personal rule in blackjack that you'll never hit on a 12 or more because you could go bust. It's true, but it doesn't optimize your results over the long term.

 
Yes, of course. I see what you're saying. The focus is certainly more versatile, as I said earlier. I thought we were talking in a purely defensive calculation.


I do mean in just a defensive calculation, though--what I mean is that evade is more reliable defensively, but I don't think that perspective is as valuable as zooming out to what's likely to extend the ship's total lifespan. And I don't think the reliability of evade against a single attack is as important as the long-term improvement in the average result that a focus token offers.

#45 Hobojebus

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:56 PM

 

 

 

Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.

 

 

Right, I'm saying that if Wingman A has a target lock on Bogey B, then Vessery focuses, gets a free target lock and proceeds to destroy Bogey B (Not unlikely with a F+TL 4 dice attack), Wingman A can no longer use his target lock - the ship is gone!

 

Certainly on the first round of shooting and against a Large ship or B-Wing, Vessery will generate a free action, but most rounds he is action neutral. Whichever ship is supplying him with the target lock is simply using their action to make sure Vessery's early-in-the-round 4 dice shot is maximized.

 

Early destruction of the other sides big hitter is important and if vassery takes out wedge without the other ship using its TL that's worth it.

 

What's more you could just take a 14 point tie with TC and have that activate vasserys ability or deliver the finishing blow.

 

HLC with TL and a focus can do alot of damage at range 3 I've done it myself, and the k-turn really puts pressure on as they have an awkward choice k themselves and lose their action or bank and still be in the sweet zone. 



#46 That One Guy

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

I know in my matches the other person sees a juicy target (points) that fires 3 shots at them and they want it gone.  what is nice is doing a 4k while stressed, thats a weird feeling.  I won with it a couple times now.  I am trying to get a lock on the right uses and set ups that really benefit it

Actually, my Defenders have tended to be some of the longest living, evasive ships in my games. Sure I'll have a game or two where the thing dies in 2-3 shots, but I've had many more games where variance plays at least slightly in my favor, and I come out on top having only lost 1-3 shields. Plus for those truly death defying games, I've had it last through turns where it should have died while barely taking a scratch.


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#47 That One Guy

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:12 PM

 

 

 

Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.

 

 

Right, I'm saying that if Wingman A has a target lock on Bogey B, then Vessery focuses, gets a free target lock and proceeds to destroy Bogey B (Not unlikely with a F+TL 4 dice attack), Wingman A can no longer use his target lock - the ship is gone!

 

Certainly on the first round of shooting and against a Large ship or B-Wing, Vessery will generate a free action, but most rounds he is action neutral. Whichever ship is supplying him with the target lock is simply using their action to make sure Vessery's early-in-the-round 4 dice shot is maximized.

 

But that's assuming the lock wastes an otherwise productive action. Fire-Control System is one way to get free locks for Vessery to use, or turns when a ship is mostly clear of any combat and takes an opportunistic target lock to use later. Vader, any shuttle with any combination of weapons engineer, FCS, or ST-321, any Phantom with FCS and Weapons Engineer… there are all other ways to maximize action economy. Even BSP, Saber Squadron or Royal Guard Interceptors with PtL and Targeting Computer can fill this roll.



#48 Sp00n

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:40 PM

Brath
Yorr+Advanced sensors+ Fleet Officer
Black+wingman
Black+wingman

Black(s) go first.  Yorr Advanced sensors Fleet officer, he is then stressed. green move, blocked by ties.  Yorr is now free of stress.  Brath has the desperately needed extra focus token. Yorr can immediately take Brath's stress if Brath were to Hard turn.  Combat starts and the Blacks take that stress away.  All the token passing gets so confusing, so very unlike the Imperials

You could drop a black wingman for an obsidian and put predator onto Brath. if you wanted.  With two focuses, predator might not be auto-include

Yorr just can't make use of the Zero if he wants to use fleet officer.  I'm liking this list, won't be able to use it til christmas however.



#49 Mikael Hasselstein

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:47 PM

When I take an action I typically consider the round, rather than the individual attacks. So what I mean is that--with 3 Agility--the chance I'll be locked out of using focus is actually similar to oreven lower than the chance that I'll be able to use it to generate 2+ evades.*

Or, to put it another way, the evade action is like making a personal rule in blackjack that you'll never hit on a 12 or more because you could go bust. It's true, but it doesn't optimize your results over the long term.

 
Yes, of course. I see what you're saying. The focus is certainly more versatile, as I said earlier. I thought we were talking in a purely defensive calculation.

 


I do mean in just a defensive calculation, though--what I mean is that evade is more reliable defensively, but I don't think that perspective is as valuable as zooming out to what's likely to extend the ship's total lifespan. And I don't think the reliability of evade against a single attack is as important as the long-term improvement in the average result that a focus token offers.

 

Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?



#50 Aminar

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:02 PM

When I take an action I typically consider the round, rather than the individual attacks. So what I mean is that--with 3 Agility--the chance I'll be locked out of using focus is actually similar to oreven lower than the chance that I'll be able to use it to generate 2+ evades.*
Or, to put it another way, the evade action is like making a personal rule in blackjack that you'll never hit on a 12 or more because you could go bust. It's true, but it doesn't optimize your results over the long term.

 
Yes, of course. I see what you're saying. The focus is certainly more versatile, as I said earlier. I thought we were talking in a purely defensive calculation.

I do mean in just a defensive calculation, though--what I mean is that evade is more reliable defensively, but I don't think that perspective is as valuable as zooming out to what's likely to extend the ship's total lifespan. And I don't think the reliability of evade against a single attack is as important as the long-term improvement in the average result that a focus token offers.
 
Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?
He's saying over 4 or 5 shots you can probably get 2 evades out of a focus. I don't buy the usefulness of that logic for the same reason you don't. Your opponent can decide not to fire at you, opting for a different target. You can take 3 shots where a focus would have saved you one damage, then suddenly roll 3 blanks and be dead. Banking on two focuses is a gamble. The evade is 1 hit nullified every time. And works every round. The focus doesn't. Now, typically I focus anyway, but if I'm defending that evade token is mighty handy. Especially on a ship I'm trying to keep clear of ablot of arcs+ as it's guaranteed to nullify 1 hit off one attack.
His logic is mathematically valid. As is the one roll superiority of an evade token.
I maintain that the Defender with Boost and Advanced Sensors would have been an incredibly unique and viable ship. As is, its usefulness is questionable. Still. It's not a bad ship, but it suffers from its point cost. The exception being Vessery. Vessery is cheaper and better than any of the named firespray pilots, but he needs the right team and could have really used one more upgrade slot for something interesting.

#51 GeneticDrift

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

As a victim of the defender, it seems to be a good flanker. Taking 4 shots at range 3 with no bonus defense die is more than nice. It is a lot of points, but it earns it.



#52 ID X T

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:07 PM

I don't think the Defender is quite right.  It seems they left a lot on the design table that would have made it a truly viable ship.  

 

Firstly, the PS3 Defender needed an EPT.  Considering only the best of the best pilots got to fly them it is fitting.  Having the EPT available means that they can take Outmanoeuvre the card that was all but made for them.  By K-turning behind their opponents it forces the opponent to K also or be at a severe disadvantage.  This is a win/win for the Defender.

 

Secondly, the system slot should have been on the Defender and not the Phantom.  I am still puzzled why they did it the way they did by giving the two best slots to the Phantom, though maybe they figured the Defender would end up too much like the B-wing. With Advanced Sensors all of the red turns become usable because you can do your action first.  FCS makes them scary on offense and makes up for the lack of action economy they currently have.  Also some nice synergy between Vessery and other Defenders with FCS.  Sensor Jammer would have been interesting too (but I suspect this was the reason the slot went to the Phantom instead).

 

If you didn't give it the System slot then it would have made sense to give it boost as a native action to allow for some change of direction while doing straight manoeuvres.  I wouldn't give it both a System slot and boost for the points though, but I wouldn't have changed the points and given them 2 of the above 3 options.

 

For such an elite ship it is also odd that it got the PS1 and PS3 treatment, while the Phantom broke the traditional mold by getting PS3 and PS5 generics, odd again, though probably down to the ACD, which lives and breaths by PS.    

 

The last thing that hurts the defender is just how much of your squad it takes up and thus limits your options for the rest of your squad.  It's price seems too expensive to get away with just using naked Defenders (at 25 points maybe).

 

I think the Defender is a big misstep for an otherwise well balanced system.  The potential was certainly there, but it seems to fall closer to the Y-wing and the Advanced for sheer usability, caused by a real lack of options.          


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#53 Aminar

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:17 PM

I don't think the Defender is quite right.  It seems they left a lot on the design table that would have made it a truly viable ship.  
 
Firstly, the PS3 Defender needed an EPT.  Considering only the best of the best pilots got to fly them it is fitting.  Having the EPT available means that they can take Outmanoeuvre the card that was all but made for them.  By K-turning behind their opponents it forces the opponent to K also or be at a severe disadvantage.  This is a win/win for the Defender.
 
Secondly, the system slot should have been on the Defender and not the Phantom.  I am still puzzled why they did it the way they did by giving the two best slots to the Phantom, though maybe they figured the Defender would end up too much like the B-wing. With Advanced Sensors all of the red turns become usable because you can do your action first.  FCS makes them scary on offense and makes up for the lack of action economy they currently have.  Also some nice synergy between Vessery and other Defenders with FCS.  Sensor Jammer would have been interesting too (but I suspect this was the reason the slot went to the Phantom instead).
 
If you didn't give it the System slot then it would have made sense to give it boost as a native action to allow for some change of direction while doing straight manoeuvres.  I wouldn't give it both a System slot and boost for the points though, but I wouldn't have changed the points and given them 2 of the above 3 options.
 
For such an elite ship it is also odd that it got the PS1 and PS3 treatment, while the Phantom broke the traditional mold by getting PS3 and PS5 generics, odd again, though probably down to the ACD, which lives and breaths by PS.    
 
The last thing that hurts the defender is just how much of your squad it takes up and thus limits your options for the rest of your squad.  It's price seems too expensive to get away with just using naked Defenders (at 25 points maybe).
 
I think the Defender is a big misstep for an otherwise well balanced system.  The potential was certainly there, but it seems to fall closer to the Y-wing and the Advanced for sheer usability, caused by a real lack of options.

So long as it's more Y-Wing(also known as perfectly usable) it's fine.
The Defender isn't a bad ship by any means. It's just...
It reminds me of a friend of mines girlfriend.
She's a shade from attractive on every level.
The Defenders dial needed one more thing to work. Either green 1 banks or a 1 forward.
The Defenders action bar needed one more thing. Boost or evade.
The Defenders upgrade slots needed one more thing, although a few cannon options really do make up for this.)
The point cost is a smidge off.
It's all just a hair from clicking into place and being a real beauty.
But that said, it's not unplayable. Just overshadowed by the Firespray and hard to fit in lists.
Until you put it in Epic. :P
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#54 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:18 PM

Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?


I… I don't know anymore.
 

He's saying over 4 or 5 shots you can probably get 2 evades out of a focus.


No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.

Edited by Vorpal Sword, 11 July 2014 - 09:19 PM.


#55 Aminar

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:25 PM

Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?

I… I don't know anymore. 

He's saying over 4 or 5 shots you can probably get 2 evades out of a focus.

No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.
The more you're attacked the faster you die. Trying to maximize the efficiency of a focus token in the face of Focus fire isn't going to save a ship. Neither is the evade. But the evade works every time. Your math is off on how often it happens. Evade would have been nice on a defender, if for no other reason than late game it is a killer action to have.
Your gambling too much for my taste waiting for a chance to get two focuses. The odds of that coming up are low.
That said, Focus is better because it allows you to modify your attack or defense. nobody is disagreeing with that. But saying its supperior to a focus defensively is not nearly so irrefutable a claim. It can be. But it's a gamble and gambles are bad.

#56 Rithrin

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:56 PM

 

 

 

 

Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.

 

 

Right, I'm saying that if Wingman A has a target lock on Bogey B, then Vessery focuses, gets a free target lock and proceeds to destroy Bogey B (Not unlikely with a F+TL 4 dice attack), Wingman A can no longer use his target lock - the ship is gone!

 

Certainly on the first round of shooting and against a Large ship or B-Wing, Vessery will generate a free action, but most rounds he is action neutral. Whichever ship is supplying him with the target lock is simply using their action to make sure Vessery's early-in-the-round 4 dice shot is maximized.

 

But that's assuming the lock wastes an otherwise productive action. Fire-Control System is one way to get free locks for Vessery to use, or turns when a ship is mostly clear of any combat and takes an opportunistic target lock to use later. Vader, any shuttle with any combination of weapons engineer, FCS, or ST-321, any Phantom with FCS and Weapons Engineer… there are all other ways to maximize action economy. Even BSP, Saber Squadron or Royal Guard Interceptors with PtL and Targeting Computer can fill this roll.

 

I talked about all this in my first post. I s'pose people read my line about Vessery and just instantly hit the reply button to correct the perceived mistake :P

 

There are ways to do it, but I was trying to respond to the question about how to run multiple defenders. I'm not sure multiple defenders is a great idea, specifically because the way to maximize them is to bring in other ships like the aforementioned ST-321 or Interceptor, which will not have much room for them in a multi-defender list.



#57 gundamv

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:09 PM

Why would anyone run a TIE Defender over the Firespray?  The Firespray is better in each category other than agility.  The Firespray has a rear arc,



#58 Rithrin

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:11 PM

Large ships are more easily action denied, for one. It's also harder to use asteroids to avoid a Defender. With a Stealth Device especially, the Defender can live longer than a Firespray.



#59 That One Guy

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:12 PM

Why would anyone run a TIE Defender over the Firespray?  The Firespray is better in each category other than agility.  The Firespray has a rear arc,

Because they're fun to fly?



#60 Sithborg

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:55 PM

Because the Firespray isn't inherently better than the Defender. People who cite the rear arc as better than the white K-turn are showing a lack of experience in flying a Firespray or Defender. The rear arc is good, make no doubt about it. But if you are using it, then it means you are essentially fleeing the battle. Yes, it is helpful if you overshoot where the opponent was going, but I would rather have the k-turn, as it allows me to follow up much easier. And then we add in the inherent superiority of having a small base vs a large base. And that the unique pilots are better on the Defender than the Firespray. People just need to adjust to flying the Defender's weird dial, which I am quickly learning to love.


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