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If You Ain't Cheatin' You Ain't Tryin'


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#1 Arrow

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:29 PM

Imdaar Alpha was fun and enjoyable, promoting not only the upcoming Wave IV ships but also allowing players to meet new people, see new builds and strategies. With that said, I couldn't help but chuckle at one particular participant who selectively applied rules throughout the event. It's been said competition brings out the worst in people but I couldn't help but laugh at some of the more blatant rules violations. Following is a list of the shenanigans I witnessed:

- ID tokens to distinguish between generic pilots weren't used
- Maneuver dials were placed next to pilot cards versus ship to enable maneuver switches during activation
- Action tokens were placed between generic pilot cards (vs ship) and then shared as situations warranted
- Spent action tokens weren't cleared but were reused in the same round
- Damage cards to one generic pilot were assigned to other twin as to avoid ship destruction
- Faceup damage card effects were ignored
- Check pilot stress step ignored to allow perform actions

- Slow roll the final 10 minutes of match to avoid a loss or prevent an opponent from upgrading from a modified win to outright win

As a rule, I usually don't pay much attention to what other players are doing but in this case after attacking and dealing 8 uncancelled hits to one TIE Interceptor, I couldn't help but notice.

Was winning an advance copy of a Wave IV ship so important to risk getting thrown out of the tournament and suffer damage to your reputation? 

 

On a side note, the player in question here did not place but it sure wasn't for lack of trying!


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#2 Sergovan

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:13 AM

At what point do you call over the T.O. to point ANY of these out?

 

There's being new to the rules but this sounds way past that problem.


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Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 6 A-Wing, 2 YT-1300, 1 YT-2400 5 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 4 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 GR 75

Empire: 7 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 3 Tie Phantom, 2 Defender, 2 VT-49 Decimator

Scum: 2 Z-95, 2 Y-wing, 1 Firespray, 1 HWK-290, 2 M3-A, 2 Starviper


#3 Greatjawa

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:15 AM

Having played in many tournaments for many different games, a subtle but good way to help prevent this activity is to inform the T.O. that you suspect a player of cheating.  Suggest he watch a match with the suspected player.  This will either catch the offender at his game, or make him really nervous that someone is watching him so he stops.  Also, if this is a regular player to your tournaments, as a Judge, I always found it fun to state at the beginning that cheating is not tolerated and anyone caught doing it would be given 1 warning only then removed from the game on a second offense.


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#4 ForceM

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:59 AM

Nah, you're just a bad loser it seems XD.

#5 Chargers

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:43 AM

At what point do you call over the T.O. to point ANY of these out?
 
There's being new to the rules but this sounds way past that problem.

+1

 

You can call the TO over with a question about your game.  Then quietly ask him/her to watch the game next to you.

 

And why wasn't the cheater's opponent questioning the tactics used?


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#6 Arrow

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 01:04 PM

 

At what point do you call over the T.O. to point ANY of these out?
 
There's being new to the rules but this sounds way past that problem.

+1
 
You can call the TO over with a question about your game.  Then quietly ask him/her to watch the game next to you.
 
And why wasn't the cheater's opponent questioning the tactics used?

 


I went into each match with the assumption my opponent would play with integrity. So on the first round I didn't realize cheating had occurred until the following round. At that point I payed close attention and ensured actions were completed correctly. Following the match I advised the TO so he could take whatever actions he saw as necessary.



#7 Duraham

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 01:28 PM

I make it a point to personally keep track of the status of my opponent's ships. Helps a lot in actual playing and decision making too, apart from the side effect of preventing cheating from occuring


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#8 rym

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 02:00 PM

Here's a hypothetical: What do you do if you see some of what Arrow mentioned going on from your opponent, and that opponent happens to be the TO also?


-_-


#9 Rain King

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 03:12 PM

The tournament rules state that if a TO is playing, there must be a back up TO who will be called to make rules decisions. This person is supposed to be identified prior to the begining of the tournament.

Edited by Rain King, 03 June 2014 - 03:13 PM.

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#10 Ken on Cape

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:58 PM

Its not cheating, its adapting to overcome. ;) 



#11 sonova

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

Just FYI the lack of ID tokens on generics or a lack of ID tokens on mirror matched ships is considered an actionable offense by FFGs own tournament ruling so it sounds like your beef is more with the TO than with the player. 

 

But it sounds like this fellow was bad at both playing the game and cheating so meh...


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#12 s1n

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:40 PM

- ID tokens to distinguish between generic pilots weren't used
- Maneuver dials were placed next to pilot cards versus ship to enable maneuver switches during activation
- Action tokens were placed between generic pilot cards (vs ship) and then shared as situations warranted
- Spent action tokens weren't cleared but were reused in the same round
- Damage cards to one generic pilot were assigned to other twin as to avoid ship destruction
- Faceup damage card effects were ignored
- Check pilot stress step ignored to allow perform actions

- Slow roll the final 10 minutes of match to avoid a loss or prevent an opponent from upgrading from a modified win to outright win

 

- I place IDs on all my ships, named or otherwise. If my opponent doesn't, then it had better be clear (i.e. only 1 Falcon and it's Chewie).

- I place all of my dials in front of my ship cards. There's enough stuff on the table, my hands usually shake (I've accidentally bumped ships), and I've made the mistake of flipping an opponent's dial, so I found it best to just not place them on the table anymore.

- Same with action tokens. I place them on the ship card (not to the side). Tokens go back to the pile to the other side of the table when not in use.

- When I go to do my dials, I also clear my tokens, since they are both next to one another. I have yet to forget to clear one.

- Could be a simple mistake, but if they weren't marking their ships, it's because they can't tell them apart likely.

- I've made this mistake on accident before. It's never intentional. I actually just recently thought about bringing the crit tokens from now on so I don't forget.

- Could be accidental, don't always assume the worst.

- The last 10 minutes are critical. It could mean the difference between winning and losing. I will take the appropriate time necessary to make the right decision. As long as it is not blatant stalling, I cannot expect myself or my opponent to rush one of the most important phases of the game. Just because Player A can decide his ships in 10 seconds, doesn't mean Player B will do the same, especially when facing a win or a loss. Everyone seems to think that since time is running out that I should play faster and potentially make more mistakes. I will not apologize for taking slightly longer than my opponent when the game is on the line. If you cry foul on that, I will not continue playing you.


Edited by s1n, 03 June 2014 - 09:41 PM.


#13 Skargoth

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:13 PM

Being AoIA was my first two tournaments, it's funny to see a few of these being mistakes made on my part.

 

One game I did forget to put ID numbers on my identical generic B-wings until after I performed my first maneuvers. Luckily it was fixed before any actual combat, I would have felt like a scumbag.

 

Everyone I played against at the tourney placed dials near their ship cards. I too have shaky hands so don't need the trouble.


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#14 Jock

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:57 AM

 

- I place all of my dials in front of my ship cards. There's enough stuff on the table, my hands usually shake (I've accidentally bumped ships), and I've made the mistake of flipping an opponent's dial, so I found it best to just not place them on the table anymore.

- Same with action tokens. I place them on the ship card (not to the side). Tokens go back to the pile to the other side of the table when not in use.

 

I know some people prefer this but the tournament rules specifically tell you not to place tokens and dials on the ship cards and i'd say with good reason. Its a lot more difficult to quickly understand what each ship is doing and it also makes a lot easier for mistakes to be made be that on purpose or by mistake.


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#15 jimbobiii

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:11 AM

 

 

- I place all of my dials in front of my ship cards. There's enough stuff on the table, my hands usually shake (I've accidentally bumped ships), and I've made the mistake of flipping an opponent's dial, so I found it best to just not place them on the table anymore.

- Same with action tokens. I place them on the ship card (not to the side). Tokens go back to the pile to the other side of the table when not in use.

 

I know some people prefer this but the tournament rules specifically tell you not to place tokens and dials on the ship cards and i'd say with good reason. Its a lot more difficult to quickly understand what each ship is doing and it also makes a lot easier for mistakes to be made be that on purpose or by mistake.

 

 

 

Do they? Only reference I find to dials is that in mirror matches the rules specifically say you CAN place them on your cards.

 

Depending on your fleet and space, I find using the cards to be less confusing, but I can understand if you think someone is trying to cheat by doing that why you might want to keep an eye on it. 



#16 Jock

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 12:07 PM

Page 5 of the FAQ. Mentions the tokens, not the dials though to be honest I've no real issue with the dials, just the tokens which that covers. Although i could have swore i did read about the dials somewhere.

 

One minor bugbear of mine is the fact that loads of people dont seem to ever use critical hit tokens and because of that, missed important rules so many times. I do use them which actually works against me. It just seems odd that people wouldnt think of not using say a focus token but i can count in one hand the amount of people who use critical tokens.


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#17 jasonkw

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 12:09 PM

The guy who took second at the tourney I attended was slow rolling the whole day. It was infuriating. 

 

He was running dual falcons, so all he had to do was make the rounds last long enough that his opponent couldn't take either of them down.

 

I should have pestered him more to hurry up since he was clearly trying to draw things out in order to win.


Rebel: A-Wing (x2), X-Wing (x4), YT-1300 (x1), Y-Wing (x1), B-Wing (x1), HWK (x1)
Imperial: TIE Fighter (x7), TIE Interceptor (x2), Firespray (x1), Lambda Shuttle (x1) TIE Bomber (x1)

 


#18 jasonkw

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 12:10 PM

Page 5 of the FAQ. Mentions the tokens, not the dials though to be honest I've no real issue with the dials, just the tokens which that covers. Although i could have swore i did read about the dials somewhere.

 

One minor bugbear of mine is the fact that loads of people dont seem to ever use critical hit tokens and because of that, missed important rules so many times. I do use them which actually works against me. It just seems odd that people wouldnt think of not using say a focus token but i can count in one hand the amount of people who use critical tokens.

Totally agree. The use of crit tokens should be required.


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Rebel: A-Wing (x2), X-Wing (x4), YT-1300 (x1), Y-Wing (x1), B-Wing (x1), HWK (x1)
Imperial: TIE Fighter (x7), TIE Interceptor (x2), Firespray (x1), Lambda Shuttle (x1) TIE Bomber (x1)

 


#19 PhantomFO

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 12:30 PM

At the venue I play at, we always put the dials on the ship cards. It's just more organized. However, those cards are also kept in plain sight, so there's not a lot of opportunity to change them.
REBEL: 4 X-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 1 Y-Wing, 3 A-Wings, 1 E-Wing, 3 Z95 Headhunters, 1 YT-1300, 1 YT-2400, 1 HWK-290, 1 GR75 Transport, 1 CR90 Corellian Corvette
IMPERIAL: 6 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Interceptors, 1 TIE Bomber, 3 TIE Phantoms, 1 TIE Defender, 2 TIE Advanced, 3 Lambda Shuttles, 1 Firespray-31, 1 VT-49 Decimator
SCUM: 4 Z95 Headhunters, 3 Y-Wings, 2 Aggressors, 1 StarViper, 1 Firespray-31, 1 HWK-290

#20 rym

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:01 PM

The guy who took second at the tourney I attended was slow rolling the whole day. It was infuriating. 

 

He was running dual falcons, so all he had to do was make the rounds last long enough that his opponent couldn't take either of them down.

 

I should have pestered him more to hurry up since he was clearly trying to draw things out in order to win.

D-bag, for sure.

 

Once it became apparent that that was what your opponent was doing, I would congratulate the guy on his win, gather up my stuff, and get up and walk away. Life is way too short to sit down for 60+ minutes and play an infuriatingly frustrating game like that. I'd rather spend the time checking out the game store or peruse the comics, or anything, really, then sit through a game like that. To each their own, I guess....

 

And yes, I have done that a Heroscape tournament once. Was actually a pretty cool feeling.


-_-