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Lack of Card Draw myth


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#1 Slio9

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 04:18 AM

I don't get how people keep saying there is a lack of Card Draw in the LCG right now. The best piece of card draw in the format is Samwell Tarly, a 1 cost neutral that triggers off of cards that are played in every deck in the LCG, and are fetched or played by 2 good plots in the format. He's unanswerable in LCG outside of 4 cards, give or take (Flaming Pitch Tower, Ilyn Paine, Guilty, and Valar). He's easily fetchable by Summoning Season, and and protectable by Maester Aemon and Retreat. I just don't understand how people keep saying that only Lanni has Card Draw when all of it's card draw is outclassed by Samwell. This isn't me saying "ZOMG BANHAMMER", I'm just noting that Samwell means that all houses are on even footing in LCG for card draw, though in LCG the differences between decks come down to about 20 cards, with 30-40 of the same neutrals and cards that are the same across houses (Refugees, ect)



#2 ktom

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 05:08 AM

Samwell is good, neutral draw.

However, keep in mind that...

a) Much of the comments about lack of draw predate Samwell - who has really only been in the environment for about 6-8 weeks.

b) To use Samwell for draw in the way you have described, you are pretty well locked into the deckbuilding choices you have outlined in order to support him. To use him reliably as a draw engine, he requires at least 3 (more like 8) slots from the draw deck - other than himself - and 1 (more like 2) slots from the plot deck. You are more or less pigeon-holed into playing a Summer or Winter deck if you want to use him for draw (and if you want to draw outside of Lannister, what other choice do you have).

 

Sure, Samwell gives all Houses access to draw, but he is the only option, and not an "inexpensive" option at that in terms of how much of the deck needs to be dedicated to your only draw engine option. As you note, using him as the draw engine means that about one-half to two-thirds of all (non-Lannister) decks are essentially the same cards. That's a lot of fun, huh? Gives a lot of room to explore the individual personality of the Houses (something long considered to be a strength in this game), doesn't it.

So yeah, Samwell is a solid neutral draw option and has helped address complaints people have had for a long time since his arrival on the scene 6-8 weeks ago. However, he has also helped solidify the "greying" of the game in that so much of all constructed decks seem to be the same neutral or House versions of certain cards. (Seriously, there is a lot in the LCG format that makes me feel like I'm playing the wheelbarrow instead of the race car in Monopoly rather than Stark instead of Baratheon in AGoT - Sam is significant part of that.)

So on the one hand, you are right. We can't really complain that "there is no good non-Lannister draw in LCG" anymore. However, I think we still have good reason to complain that "there is not enough non-Lannister draw in LCG."



#3 Lars

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 06:18 AM

ktom said:

Sure, Samwell gives all Houses access to draw, but he is the only option,

theres gilly too. plus i think all of the core set houses have a card that lets them draw if something else happens (king renly, xaro's home, sansa, insidous ways). i think the only valid compliant is that it is so easy for lannister to do it with gold tooth mine and now tommen, not to mention tyrion, qyburn's informers and anything else i might be foregetting about.

 

I used to like Sam, especially in my winter bara deck. But with Men with No King i can't risk running him.



#4 Old Ben

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 06:39 AM

Lars said:

 

theres gilly too. plus i think all of the core set houses have a card that lets them draw if something else happens (king renly, xaro's home, sansa, insidous ways). i think the only valid compliant is that it is so easy for lannister to do it with gold tooth mine and now tommen, not to mention tyrion, qyburn's informers and anything else i might be foregetting about.

 

 

~Huh, did you misread the former statements, since when is insidious way a non- lanni card draw ? And how is Gilly different from the grey summer deckbuiliding that comes along with Samwell as Ktom already described? And why exactly can Renly consiodered to be a reliable draw engine with 1 1/2 power struggle plots in LCG? And Sansa ....  pardon, without words.

Well, Xaro´s home is okay  and you might want to consider Daeny´s chamber as a sort of card draw card too, recursion is moren often than not the better draw engine. Desert exiles is another possible card draw engine, it depends on how reliable the new events are - i guess they are okay. And there´s also the plot from the Core set. And some other cards like Gates of winterfell may also be considered to be some kind of additional draw -  i think "draw" is not necessarily defined as a card that reads "draw xy cards" but can be any card that helps you to go through your deck faster or find the right card solutions you need.   

In general i´m all with Ktom saying that there´s are not enough additional "draw" solutions for all non- Lannister houses which aren´t bound to one deck building type.



#5 Stag Lord

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 07:57 AM

I agree with Ktom, but I don't think hee goes far enough.

Specifically - Sam is decent draw, but even so - he leaves a littel to be desired. good draw is a consistent +1 to + 3 cards per trun, turn after turn. Sam is part of a combo - you need to have him in play and then start with the brids. if you flop Carrion birds and Sam comes out later - you have just lost part of your darw engine. Yes - he triggers off your opponent's birds too, but again - better ahve him out early to get teh best use out of him. And what fi your opponent waits unitl he is gone bfore playing their birds? Sorry - i don't like my draw engine to be any aprt of a combo. I wnat soemthing liek Cache or Massing - constant, reliable draw. Or minimal combos like Myrcella or Watching and 90% of the Lannister tsuff - simple relaible conditions taht will accelerate my deck.

And this is the problem with most of the cards Lars cites. Just because the Houses have some card draw effects doesn't mean they are going to amke the cut in a competitive deck. And as such - they hardly even up the palying field with Lannister and their effects.

samwell is good, but he isn't enough. The competitive torunaments will all be domianted by Lannister for the next little while.



#6 Lars

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 08:42 AM

I never commented on the reliabilty of any of the cards i mentioned, i just put them out there for disclosure sake. I included insisouds ways as an example of my statement "all of the core set houses have a card that lets them draw if something else happens."

I make my decks summer if i feel i don't have enough draw, does that make it grey, not really. Gilly means i don't have to use samwell (and thus the 6x ravens) and there is at least something in house that i can also draw with.

And if you are expanding your definition of draw so expansively Old Ben, then a stark deck can easily draw as well with as much search as they have. You might have dismissed Sansa out of hand, but thats your loss, in LCG she can be both an effective character and draw engine. she is one of the few stark characters capable of having renown and attachments are actually a good thing in LCG (there are so many control effects that say a character without attachments right now) so her draw engine isn't a waste of a card to draw.

Maybe the problem is that a lot of people are still looking forlornly at standard where it was sickingly easy to draw a card a turn. Renly might not be able to draw me a card more then twice right now, but in a 3/4 noble with INT, POW, and renown (lacking in LCG) i'd love those 2 extra cards he might give me.

Lannister can draw in house, but except for Tyrion there is no card that i would want for anything other then draw, and would have no problem pulling it for a card that did something. Lanni is strong, but the card draw isn;t going to help it win or speed up a win. Bara can go faster then them. In a long game i think stark has enough kill to out character them (with a little protection on sansa, eddard, and arya, aka in house renown). Targ, i haven't played them enough but there is a thread floating around about their strength right now and they have the best Core Set cards.

 

~Stag ask Andy to run a different house and i bet you that house starts winning all the jousts



#7 Old Ben

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 10:58 AM

Lars said:

I make my decks summer if i feel i don't have enough draw, does that make it grey, not really. Gilly means i don't have to use samwell (and thus the 6x ravens) and there is at least something in house that i can also draw with.

 

If you are deciding to run a summer deck anyway Gilly is a good and natural choice. But the discussion somehow started at the point - if i want good draw i´ll have to run either the summer or winter mechanic and that´s somehow different from what you are saying. And it´s hard to prove that statement wrong - at least that´s my impression.

 

Lars said:

And if you are expanding your definition of draw so expansively Old Ben, then a stark deck can easily draw as well with as much search as they have. You might have dismissed Sansa out of hand, but thats your loss, in LCG she can be both an effective character and draw engine. she is one of the few stark characters capable of having renown and attachments are actually a good thing in LCG (there are so many control effects that say a character without attachments right now) so her draw engine isn't a waste of a card to draw.

To get a little more into detail here. There are two different aspects why you include draw cards in your deck, the first one is just to  get as much material as possible, the second one is to concentrate on getting the right  cards you need. A lot of the "expansively draw definition" cards perfectly solve the second case. It all depends on the current play situation which kind of "draw" i need. So in some cases Stark´s "To be a wolf" could be so much better than any draw 3 cards effect  And i think if we get to talk about draw we´ve to keep that in mind- Lanni has no search effects, but other houses have search and/or recursion effect which might help to find the "right" card.

About Sansa, yes she´s not the worst Sansa out there, but the discussion is not about her stats, she definetely fits into a Stark deck. But how much draw could you really get out of her? How much worthy attachments are in the LCG format you choose to play on her?  Icy Catapult - once?!  

Lars said:


Maybe the problem is that a lot of people are still looking forlornly at standard where it was sickingly easy to draw a card a turn. Renly might not be able to draw me a card more then twice right now, but in a 3/4 noble with INT, POW, and renown (lacking in LCG) i'd love those 2 extra cards he might give me.

 

You are absolutely right about Renly being a very decent and playable charachter, but we are talking about draw effects, aren´t we? ;-)  So once again, it´s more or less a welcome side effect, which might fetch you a card and if you are a lucky guy two cards in one game but it isn´t really a constant draw effect.

 

Lars said:


Maybe the problem is that a lot of people are still looking forlornly at standard where it was sickingly easy to draw a card a turn. Renly might not be able to draw me a card more then twice right now, but in a 3/4 noble with INT, POW, and renown (lacking in LCG) i'd love those 2 extra cards he might give me.

 

And why shouldn´t people knowing the CCG game look at the old standard format? Remember that half of the game is still on the power level of  standard card draw mechanics. Lanni has the potential to hit the draw limit every round and there are effects like Valar which seem to be an indicator that an average level of draw is assumed- resetting the board with zero hand cards on either side doesn´t make much sense for a tactical game if t´here isn´t a chance to play sustainable. Sustainable play is to to hold back cards and play draw cards as well as recursion and search. 

Lars said:


Lannister can draw in house, but except for Tyrion there is no card that i would want for anything other then draw, and would have no problem pulling it for a card that did something. Lanni is strong, but the card draw isn;t going to help it win or speed up a win. Bara can go faster then them. In a long game i think stark has enough kill to out character them (with a little protection on sansa, eddard, and arya, aka in house renown). Targ, i haven't played them enough but there is a thread floating around about their strength right now and they have the best Core Set cards.

 

I agree it´s not like other houses won´t have a chance against Lanni, i don´t see them necessarily as the dominant house. But with every other card - "option"- being available in the LCG format, the draw engine get´s more important. So if other houses don´t have the chance for at least some more card draw, Lanni might be outmatching them pretty soon. 



#8 Stag Lord

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:24 AM

Or now.

We diagree slightly here ben. At this poitn - wiht teh 5 kings cycle complete and winter gone - i think Lanni is dominant in LCG and close to in Standard.



#9 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:19 AM

Stag Lord said:

Or now.

We diagree slightly here ben. At this poitn - wiht teh 5 kings cycle complete and winter gone - i think Lanni is dominant in LCG and close to in Standard.

I'd agree that if Lannister is not dominant in an LCG meta, it's because people are consciously trying to avoid playing them. It's not that the other 3 LCG Houses (or 5 if you include the Martell and Greyjoy "gray" decks out there) cannot put up a fight, but in my experience, every other House is at a disadvantage in LCG against a Lanni player who knows how to build. (Heck, even Lars has said in other posts that if the Lannister player is not making an exceptionally strong showing in your Storyline League, they're probably doing something wrong.)

I'd agree with Stag that they are strong-bordering-on-dominant in Standard, too. I remember people thinking they were pretty weak when VED rotated and 5KE came out (and granted, Thorns and Talons were rougher sets for Lanni), but then people really started putting them together. They performed exceptionally well in the 5KE days, and the rotation of WED from Standard only helped them.

The House I think is not getting enough "press" in Standard right now is Greyjoy. They got some sick, sick, sick cards in the Ravens cycle. If they had basic resources in LCG, I'd go so far as to say they could make a serious challenge to Lannister's dominance there, too.



#10 Moneylender

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:23 AM

Well as far as I have seen, Targ is also able to hit tha draw cap each round, even without the summer agenda.

Every other house is handicaped in that regard, and hast to make up for it by making the most out of the resets, by playing as little cards as possible and/or save effects. Also the threat of your reset alone will force them not to use every card they draw.  

But yeah Lanni and Targ do feel overpowered right now.

Also Ktom is right, Greyjoy is a close to being on the same power level, but it´s just because we allowed the basic resource locations for Martell and GJ over here.



#11 Lars

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:11 AM

ktom said:

 

(Heck, even Lars has said in other posts that if the Lannister player is not making an exceptionally strong showing in your Storyline League, they're probably doing something wrong.)

 

 

just out of curiousity and since i don't remember saying this could you find it for me? I think the only coment i've made on lannister in regard to leagues is that in our league The guy playing lannister took second a couple of times and never won a league night. I think in our league night bara had the highest winning percentage with a sleek summer deck (and not for the daw, but for the extra renown and reducers) which i've copycatted to an extent since.

 

I still think the Oringal post has a valid point, Sam is a great card draw engine, which apparently is countered by the greying of the game...of which my response was you don't have to grey the game to draw. There is card draw for every (at least Core Set) house, you might have to work a little harder at it then some lanni cards, but it is there. And if the in house draw is not enough for you, supplament it with a simple agenda/mostly immune attachment that you can search for. if thats not enough add Sam and go agenda less if you want to save a few deck slots. 

In my current bara build i summons/time for ravens 1st turn to get renly or black raven. second turn fury of the stag, third turn unconcventional warfare. Thereby giving me three straight turns of draw (since search is draw; +1, +2, +2 without gilly [in the deck] or sam [not in the deck]) which gives me lots of time to get into the 14 charcaters other then renly with renown in my deck (some of which are duped, but we won't count them). With that setup, so far i've won about 80% of the time before the 4th plot gets flipped. Renly wouldn't make the cut as a draw engine in lannister, but what he does for Baratheon is just about what they need. I could make a simular deck/argument about sansa.



#12 Stag Lord

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:25 AM

Moneylender said:

Well as far as I have seen, Targ is also able to hit tha draw cap each round, even without the summer agenda.

Every other house is handicaped in that regard, and hast to make up for it by making the most out of the resets, by playing as little cards as possible and/or save effects. Also the threat of your reset alone will force them not to use every card they draw.  

But yeah Lanni and Targ do feel overpowered right now.

Also Ktom is right, Greyjoy is a close to being on the same power level, but it´s just because we allowed the basic resource locations for Martell and GJ over here.

 

?? WTF? How the HELL do you see Targ hitting three cards a turn, every turn in LCG? Xaro's? Please. In standard - maybe - with cache allowed. I can see it there - with myrcella adn cache you cna pretty much hit teh cap. But in LCG - i just don't see it.

@ Lars; For the record, I took issue with Sam being a strong draw engine - see above. He's good, but he's not great. No combo-draw card is great.



#13 Moneylender

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:50 AM

Stag Lord said:

 

 

?? WTF? How the HELL do you see Targ hitting three cards a turn, every turn in LCG? Xaro's? Please. In standard - maybe - with cache allowed. I can see it there - with myrcella adn cache you cna pretty much hit teh cap. But in LCG - i just don't see it.

 

Yes it´s LCG, and it´s prety much all xaro´s with denearys chambers and characters that jump back to hand, or search an attachment, so that the deck usually returns 2 bones of a child per round and plays some other attachment to hit the draw cap for 3 gold and 3 influence (or just 2 with the summer agenda). I actually don´t know how he does it but he usually has the whole "combo" running in about round 3. Needless to say that a) he needs a lot of time for alle the marshalling effets and b) the deck is very frustrating to play against.



#14 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:58 AM

Moneylender said:

Yes it´s LCG, and it´s prety much all xaro´s with denearys chambers and characters that jump back to hand, or search an attachment, so that the deck usually returns 2 bones of a child per round and plays some other attachment to hit the draw cap for 3 gold and 3 influence (or just 2 with the summer agenda). I actually don´t know how he does it but he usually has the whole "combo" running in about round 3. Needless to say that a) he needs a lot of time for alle the marshalling effets and b) the deck is very frustrating to play against.

And Fleeing to the Wall will screw up the whole thing - takes more than 3 locations to keep that going....



#15 Stag Lord

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:24 AM

Seriously.

Plus the warlock who searches for attachments needs it to be summer - this is a LOT of work to hit the draw cap. as opposed to what Lannister can just sopend soem money on a location or a dude.

its really not even close - though i do admit, if the Targ player can get all that set up - it will be a real headache to face.



#16 Masi

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 09:27 PM

ktom said:

 

And Fleeing to the Wall will screw up the whole thing - takes more than 3 locations to keep that going....

You can play chambers as an attachment, so 7 "locations" can run it going. And every chamber played as an attachment makes you draw by itself. (I pay the chamber, I attach it to the house, I kneel it, I draw a card.)

My targ deck reaches the draw cap consistently in 4/5 matches.



#17 rings

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:08 PM

Masi said:

ktom said:

 

 

And Fleeing to the Wall will screw up the whole thing - takes more than 3 locations to keep that going....

 

 

You can play chambers as an attachment, so 7 "locations" can run it going. And every chamber played as an attachment makes you draw by itself. (I pay the chamber, I attach it to the house, I kneel it, I draw a card.)

My targ deck reaches the draw cap consistently in 4/5 matches.

If your opponent is letting you play out-of-house chambers and stay in the game...that is their problem.  :)

I agree with the basic premise (talking LCG here), most houses can get some draw going.  Almost everyone should be running Sam, for sure.

My Stark deck actually loves Sansa.  There are plenty of attachments that work well on her.  Catapult obviously.  Bodyguard.  Ice.  A couple of the direwolves.  In psuedo-draw the Kennels are okay, and I have seen Bran the Builder for out of house GTM's search.  Lastly, the location that looks at your top card, and puts it into play if it is a characters isn't bad.  

Targ I don't think is actaully all that solid.  You have to commit to both the location, influence, and attachments.  It can be very excellent if you get it going (especially wiht the recurring), but it is just inconsistant to me.

Bara has some - their Epic phase event isn't bad.  Renly works on one turn.    But fairly weak overall.

Lanni is probably the front-runner in LCG, but my Stark deck beats my Lanni deck at least 50% of the time (and hopefully most people here understand i can build Lanni alright).  Catapult and Bear Island are really good, and their character base is very strong.  Their search event is crazy as well - and both that event (standing PLUS search?!?) and their Fury card beat on Lanni's head. 


Oh, King eh? Very nice...

#18 Moneylender

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 11:42 PM

rings said:

Lanni is probably the front-runner in LCG, but my Stark deck beats my Lanni deck at least 50% of the time (and hopefully most people here understand i can build Lanni alright).  Catapult and Bear Island are really good, and their character base is very strong. 

It maybe a little of topic.... but I was rather dissapointed how litttle impact targetet kill did against lanni. It´s just that Lanni is mostly about card draw, really good events and some kneel effects with most characters being non unique, so you dan´t have any really important targets. And the draw still makes up for the loss of characters. It feels like Stark should have TWO bear islands to compensate the lack of draw ;)



#19 Stag Lord

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 03:15 AM

Oh yeah.

~ That'd be SWELL.



#20 Old Ben

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 06:00 AM

~Hooray. Mr. moneylender for AGOT LCG product designer. ;-)   






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