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Ambush Question


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#1 Old Ben

Old Ben

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:19 PM

Finkin Swiftfingers:


Currently we have a deck that is running some Targ Ambush out of a Lannister deck. When playing the ambush card with influence, is the player required to pay the 2 gold penalty or is that negated by paying the printed cost for the ambush card?



ktom:



Finkin Swiftfingers wrote:
Currently we have a deck that is running some Targ Ambush out of a Lannister deck.

How are they managing to run Targ Ambush out of a Lannister deck? Absolutely every card with Ambush is "House Targaryen only."

Okay, that's over-stated. The Dragon Chaser is "House Targaryen or House Greyjoy only" and Jaquen isn't House only. Of course, Jaquen has the Lannister affiliation, so it's a moot point.

Point being, the question of OOH penalty should never come up with Ambush since the cards are "House" only.


FinkinSwiftfingers:


Yeah wow I thought the card was being played wrong but I never thought it was due to the House restriction. Thanks - I apologize for the really bad question.


ktom:

It's not a bad question (and for future reference - the reference to "printed" cost does bypass gold penalties), it's just a situation that shouldn't be possible.



Stag Lord:


Better question an Ambush: How come the Queen of Thorns can cancel an ambush character coming into play? And what happens if she does? Is the character discarded, or does it stay in your hand?



ktom:


Stag Lord wrote:
Better question an Ambush: How come the Queen of Thorns can cancel an ambush character coming into play? And what happens if she does? Is the character discarded, or does it stay in your hand?

Effects that can cancel triggered effects can cancel Ambush because the rules of the game say that Ambush cards are put into play as an "Any Phase" effect. This qualifies the use of the keyword as a triggered effect, open to appropriate cancels (which, I know, seems a little weird since we're used to thinking of keywords as passives and thus beyond most cancels).

Since the QoT would cancel the effect, the Ambush card would thus not be "put into play." There is no rule in the game that says you discard a card that you tried to put into play with a canceled card effect. Therefore, the card stays wherever you tried to put it into play from - in this case, your hand.


Stag Lord:


What other cards can cancel ambush? Some Greyjoy nastiness I would imagine.

And are any of the other House keywords cancellable? Stalwart for instance?


karstark:


ktom wrote:
And no, Put to the Question will NOT cancel the Ambush of a Hatchling because Ambush doesn't actually target.




You can't cancel Flame Kissed either, right? I mean, with Put To The Question or Saltspear. Cause it doesn't target, yes?




ktom:


Correct.



eaeisd:



I'm going to be debbie downer again, and argue that this is a needlessly complicated ruling. we have a past ruling that says keywords aren't character abilities. There is no bold text. why shouldn't ambush be a triggered passive, which it looks like and we already have rules for (that could be modified, if necessary), rather than some kind of new dangfangled triggered-effect-without-a-bold-text-keyword-(which-might-still-not-be-a-character-ability)?

C'mon. This is A Game of Thrones, not A Game of Exceptions to Rules.



staton_70:


Well the Ambush itself pretty much gives the card the text "Any Phase: Kneel X influence to put this card into play. X is equal to the printed cost of this card." I don't think its that complicated, unless you already know about the fact that Keywords aren't Character Abilities I guess. Anyway, I would prefer to not be able to cancel Ambush, but I'm certainly not going to complain! haha



ktom:


eaeisd wrote:
we have a past ruling that says keywords aren't character abilities.

But no one is treating it as a character ability. You're triggering it from out-of-play anyway, so at best, it is a card effect. A card that cancels character abilities cannot cancel this under any circumstances.

eaeisd wrote:
There is no bold text. why shouldn't ambush be a triggered passive

That's debatable. According to the game's core rules and the definition of Ambush:
Quote:
Ambush (New )
You may put a card with the "Ambush" keyword into play from your hand as an Any Phase: action, by paying its printed gold cost with influence.

So there's the bold text, defined in the rules under the explanation of exactly what Ambush is and how it works. (And yes, the bold "Any Phase" is in the rules; I didn't add the format.)

So, is it really a rules exception that you can cancel it as a triggered effect (but not a character ability)? Considering that Ambush is defined in terms of a "bold text" effect and is entirely optional in terms of when it can be used, it seems like more of a rules exception to say that it is NOT defined as triggered. 



FAQ 7.0

(4.14) Keywords

Keyword effects with a point of initiation

(such as ambush) cannot be canceled.

Characters can be saved from the effects of a

keyword like deadly.

 


 






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