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Saving Burn Victims


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#1 Old Ben

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:12 PM

Trump:

Can it be done? It seems like the condition to kill the character if its STR reaches 0 this phase is perpetual so you'd have to repeatedly save it... which isn't possible. Or does this only trigger once when the STR reaches 0 and thus you can save the character?


Mauve Butterfly:


With burn effects, the character does enter a terminal "perpetual saving" state. The game deals with this by requiring a save to remove a character from the terminal state in order to be successful. So in order to save a character from burn, you need an effect that both saves the character AND RAISES ITS STRENGTH ABOVE ZERO. Risen From the Sea comes to mind.

Thus it is not possible to burn your own Army of the Drowned with Blood Magic, and repeatedly save it until you have won the game. (As an example)


ktom:

Two additional details that can usually be important:

- When a card is in a terminal state (like "kill at 0"), the save doesn't necessarily have to raise the character's STR itself. It simply has to remove it from the terminal state. So a save that removes the character from play (like LP-Viserys) or one that invalidates a STR reduction without specifically raising STR (for example, And Rises Again, while not actually able to raise STR on its own, would "shut off" Flame-Kissed). Perhaps a bit technical, but important to remember that there are more options.

- If you used Flame-Kissed to kill one of my 2-STR characters, I couldn't use Healing to save, knowing it wouldn't work, for the express purpose of Responding to playing an event (like standing ITE-Arianne). This is because if a character is in a terminal state, you cannot even TRY to save it (to create Response triggers) unless that save also removes from the terminal state.


Trump:

Hmmm, so to save the character, I need a response that either cancels the effect (if that's what caused the death) or that increases the character's STR. Simply having a response to save the character isn't enough, even if I have some other way to strip off the attachment or boost the STR with a non-response event?


ktom:


Trump wrote:
Hmmm, so to save the character, I need a response that either cancels the effect (if that's what caused the death) or that increases the character's STR. Simply having a response to save the character isn't enough, even if I have some other way to strip off the attachment or boost the STR with a non-response event?

Correct. Because the "kill at 0" is CONSTANT, always asserting itself passively while the character's STR is 0. So a two-step process of "save then strip/boost" will not work because the condition will always be applicable between the steps. You must do BOTH (save and strip/boost) at the same time in order to prevent the "kill at 0" from applying a second time (or, as you noticed, stop it from ever applying in the first place with a cancel).

And if you can't do both at the same time, you aren't allowed to even try to do one.



Mauve Butterfly:

Actually, I made a bit of an oversight with the "must raise its STR to save it" claim. If you have another way of removing it from the terminal state, you can save it that way too.

For instance, Legacy Pack Viserys has the ability: Response: save Viserys Targaryen from being killed or discarded and then return him to owner's hand.
In this case, Viserys can use his ability to save himself from burn effects because he will no longer be in play afterwards (and is thus no longer affected by the burn effect).



ktom:

~Glad we cleared that up.


Mauve Butterfly:


ktom wrote:
~Glad we cleared that up.


I even read your response; somehow I just missed that line



ktom:



Mauve Butterfly wrote:
ktom wrote:
~Glad we cleared that up.


I even read your response; somehow I just missed that line

Happens. I'm just being a prick.
 



#2 perthius

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:58 PM

Can you use a normal save to prevent a character from being killed by Poison?  The way I read it the card can only become 0 or lower once and therefore you could save them normally.



#3 ktom

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 10:33 PM

perthius said:

Can you use a normal save to prevent a character from being killed by Poison?  The way I read it the card can only become 0 or lower once and therefore you could save them normally.

Poison is a reprint from the original Westeros edition. The "becomes 0" wording is sort of an archaic way for the more standard wording of burn you are used to. There is no practical difference between "becomes 0" and "is 0," just as there is no practical difference between "reduce the cost" and "lower the cost."

So no, you cannot use a normal save on Poison. It's a terminal effect, even with the "becomes 0" wording.






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