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Problems playing Jinteki


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#1 ReploidArmada

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:06 PM

I've gotten into playing A:NR casually, but in my local playgroup only a couple other people play as well, so even though I keep up on data packs I still only have a single core set. I figure putting down money for the second core set isn't worth it unless I try to play competitively. I decided to build Jinteki for my corp deck but I ran into a distinct problem in my last session: I was too predictable. The runner (Noise) guessed I put down Chum in front of a force-rezzed Neural Katana, guessed which servers held agendas as opposed to economy assets (or Junebugs, but I didn't see mine that game) and basically saw through my shell game.

Here's a decklist for y'all:

Identity (Base link: 0 Min deck size: 45 Influence: 12/15)

    1× Jinteki, Personal Evolution

Agenda (Agenda points: 21/20-21)
    3× Priority Requisition [5]  3 - Security.
    3× Nisei MK II          [4]  2 - Initiative.
    3× Fetal AI             [5]  2 - Ambush.

ICE [20]
    2× Ichi 1.0••      [5]  4 - Sentry. Bioroid. Tracer. Destroyer.
    3× Neural Katana   [4]  3 - Sentry.
    2× Sensei          [3]  5 - Code Gate.
    2× Enigma          [3]  2 - Code Gate.
    2× Chum            [1]  4 - Code Gate.
    2× Wall of Thorns  [8]  5 - Barrier. AP.
    3× Wall of Static  [3]  3 - Barrier.
    2× Whirlpool       [0]  1 - Trap.
    2× Data Mine       [0]  2 - Trap. AP.

Upgrade [3]
    3× Hokusai Grid   [2] - Region.

Asset [12]
    3× Adonis Campaign•• [4] - Advertisement.
    3× PAD Campaign      [2] - Advertisement.
    3× Snare!            [0] - Ambush.
    3× Project Junebug   [0] - Ambush. Research.

Operation [5]
    3× Hedge Fund     [5] - Transaction.
    2× Anonymous Tip• [0]

My card pool includes 1 core set, as previously stated, plus the entire Genesis cycle minus ASiS. What I was intending to do with the deck is a standard vertical shell game, setting up well-defended remote servers and trying to bait the runner into running onto a Junebug or a Fetal AI - so long as I can spare them getting the two points. Unfortunately, as previously stated, it didn't go too well first time around.

My questions are thus:

  • Is the deck fine for playing vertical Jinteki?
  • Is there a specific way I'm supposed to play a shell game?
  • If I end up not being able to pull off a proper Jinteki game, what would be a good alternative corp/build for no-nonsense Corp play?

Thanks.



#2 Brigaldio

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:02 AM

I'm going to be experimentign with Jinteki in the near future.  My take on it right now is that your kill servers also have to serve double duty as your real agenda servers.  If you can get one or two uses out of a Melange or other economy card, you can set up a Cell Portal behind either a Neural Katana or a Chum, then put a Whirlpool on top of that.  Then you stick an agenda  or trap) in it and dare the runner to run.  Hopefully you have the credits to outlast theirs and put them on a recurring cycle of unbroken Cell Portal Chum NK nonsense.  Wanatabe (the sys op or whoever) and Dedicated Server can help with rez costs.

 

Also, run Neural EMP.  Hasaki grid is semi-predictable.  You want to be able to threaten a Ronin into 2x Neural EMP so that you can kill them if they end their turn after a snare or Fetal AI.


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#3 DeckBuilder

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:56 PM

Your build overall looks pretty solid!

Firstly this is all just an opinion. I am not comfortable with Personal Evolution, preferring Replicating Perfection.

I think Jinteki is the weakest Corp that requires the highest skill level to win and to make matters worse, Noise is probably the worst match-up as he has (1) Wyldeside, (2) Imp vs. economy assets & upgrades, (3) Darwin/Crypis vs. Traps, (4) no way to poison the single strike big Archives run (beyond Red Herring, which nicely combos with Fetal AI). Jinteki also needs unpredictable balls-out sometimes illogical play. This may not be your strong point. Maybe playing HB efficiency or Weyland speed would be better suited?

As I said, your build seems pretty solid. My main issues with it are…

(a)    With your agenda choice, there is no reason to run on an unadvanced card. As your agendas dictate strategy, I won’t change them. It means never advance an agenda or Junebug on installing it. It may be Private Contracts, Snare or Hokusai so the runner should not run it. Next turn advance it 3 (Jinteki must always have 4 credits spare for Snare!). Now runner daren’t risk a Junebug (even with overdraw, you can kill him with Neural EMP) and must let it go unless your score is at 4+. That is when he cannot risk a Priority Requisition so must run into a Junebug.

(b)   Sensei is for cheap high strength trace ice (Hunter, Draco, Snowflake, Matrix Analyzer) in a very deep vertical server. These ice is also what Chum is good in front of. Sensei is good in the Scorched Earth Jinteki tracing variant (also Snare’s tag) which your build is not attempting. You need 2x Core for 3 Scorched Earth & 3 Chum.

©    Anonymous Tip seems a strange choice of influence spend to quicken when Jinteki plays slow, spending free clicks for credits. Perhaps this is due to always facing R&D Interface in your play group? Personal Evolution is best suited to flat-line greedy R&D runs, especially with both Hokusai Grid on R&D and Neural EMP in hand.

Some minor issues (based purely on personal style so feel free to ignore them)…

I am not a fan of Whirlpool in Personal Evolution as you need End-the-Run ice which goes against Whirlpool. It works better in Replicating Perfection which is full of harmful ice that don’t end the run (like Janus) which act as a deterrent on its centrals.  Yes, it can create an occasional flashy win but it is too situational. And combined with Data Mine, you become too vulnerable to AI breakers. I expect Noise now runs Darwin & Surge?

Similarly, with 1 Core Set, I don’t like 2 Data Mines with just 2 Chums. Unlike Neural Emp, only ever played in multiples to deal lethal damage, one-use Data Mine has hidden install costs and needs careful set-up with Mine at level 2 and Chum at level 3. It’s just too over-ambitious. Even then, the runner just ends his early-click run and draws back up to 3 vs. Neural EMP.

Anyway, below is a low-quanitity high-cost ice build you could try. (It may be too ambitious but then I play 3x Janus, 3x Ichi in my Replicating Perfection). I can't say that I've played it so expect to modify it for any shortcomings.

 

Jinteki: Personal Evolution (49 cards, 21 agenda pts)

15/15 influence: •••••••••••••••

Agenda (9)

·         3 Fetal AI 

·         3 Nisei MK II 

·         3 Priority Requisition 

Asset (14)

·         2 Melange Mining Corp 

·         3 PAD Campaign 

·         3 Private Contracts 

·         3 Project Junebug 

·         3 Snare! 

Upgrade (3)

·         3 Hokusai Grid 

Operation (6)

·         3 Hedge Fund 

·         3 Neural EMP 

Barrier (3)

·         3 Wall of Thorns 

Code Gate (8)

·         2 Chum 

·         3 Pop-up Window •••

·         3 Tollbooth ••••• •

Sentry (6)

·         3 Ichi 1.0 ••••• •

·         3 Neural Katana 

 

I opted for less ice but big ice (you already have a good game against aggressive Criminal runners). You first ice up relevant centrals then one remote fort. Spare clicks are for credits, ideally Private Contracts. Don’t panic if you can’t rez blocking ice (you don’t need to block centrals, just make it taxing). You are Jinteki. It is as important for you to threaten Snare and Neural EMP as it is for you to have ice. Forged Activation Order forces your hand here.

Jinteki needs credits for its ambushes. Pop-Up Window is perfect passive income. Placed on centrals (usually), you need 1 less credit to pay for that Snare. Facing Account Siphon (rez economy assets to minimise theft) or Vamp, one Pop-Up in your remote ensures that 3-advanced card could still be a lethal Junebug even when broke.

Private Contracts needs explaining. Unlike PAD Campaign (install naked except against Imp, Whizzard, Scrubber or Bank Job), it is placed in your remote server and used in 3 turns. Its purpose is to waste credits on a run (which unlike an Adonis Campaign he won’t thrash at full 5 cost). Even if no run, seeing it rezzed in the fort, there will be a nagging worry the next unadvanced card is another one. As it is so expendable, it is a perfect credit-wasting bait and provides psychological protection for every card you install and don’t advance. (Along with PAD and Hokusai, it also helps to foil a Siphon.)

As card slots are sparse, I chose Tollbooth because in Chum, you have the perfect counter if a Femme counter lands on it. Install the first Tollbooth or Thorns in your remote fort waiting for Melange which then funds its rezzing, protecting it. Timing is critical here (when missing relevant breaker or low on funds). You have Hokusai and Private Contracts (even Snare) as run-inducing bait. The runner should be wary of running an unadvanced card.

The other reason I’ve chosen big ice is to maximise use of Priority Requisition. Deck space is sparse and Jinteki has sufficient deterrent defences to have low ice. Also big ice is best for long games, to maximise repeat taxing, small ice for fast games. However, you may want to replace Thorns with Static if you find the cost curve too high.

The main thing witrh Jinteki is to double-think your runner. Anticipate Inside Job or Stimhack or Test Run Femme and install a Junebug behind the vulnerable ice then triple advance it, ready for the runner trick. A double advance is not enough deterrent, a single advance signals Nisei (don't forget its power!). This signal can set up a bluff with a Junebug if the run is too expensive to repeat in 2 turns (when you score your agenda). Never waste your Neural EMP except to win. Threat is your greatest weapon (10 credits = 6 damage with Snare! followed by 3 Neural EMP), making the runner cautious allowing you to score. Use the Snare! tag to kill a loaded Kati (unloaded is probably a trap, spare in hand) or a loaded Workshop.

However, if you are regularly playing against Noise, I strongly suggest you choose another Corp.

If sticking with Personal Evolution, I would suggest 10 x 2pt agendas. But that is a very different build to a Priority Requisition big ice build. I have stuck with your original agenda strategy and tweaked your list accordingly



#4 ReploidArmada

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

Reading your post, DeckBuilder, I'm thinking I should switch out of Jinteki and play either HB or Weyland. I don't get many opportunities to play NR, since I only meet up with my playgroup once a week, and indeed until one of my other friends got a core set (the same guy who was playing Noise) I didn't have another person to play against. As such, I'm not as practiced in the game as many others, particularly playing Corp, and from what I've noticed Jinteki isn't an easy corp to play as.

Concerning HB and Weyland, what would those strategies look like? I had an idea to run an ice-advancement Weyland deck with Commercialization and Shipments and the like, but I doubt that's what you meant.



#5 DeckBuilder

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:51 PM

The easiest Corp deck to play is a fast Weyland deck (see the Weyland Card Draw thread earlier). Especially against Noise, the lack of assets for Imp to destroy and its fast tempo ensures you usually win before Noise is ready. It also has program thrashing for Djinn hosting viruses That Weyland deck requires Green Level Clearance and Oversight AI, both ASIS cards. That pack also has the Weyland identity that plays Commercialisation, the deck that you suggest.

So far, you have said

(a)  you are less experienced than your regular opponent

(b) your regular opponent often plays Noise

© you have 1 Core + all Genesis packs except ASIS

Unfortunately, without some crucial 3rd cards (e.g. Scorched Earth), your options for creating a really competitive deck are limited.

A good deck to play against Noise is HB Big Ice. You have Archived Memories and Project Vitruvius to reclaim face down agendas in Archives. Your ice have high strength, resilient vs. Parasite, Darwin and fixed strength breakers. Noise with Wyldeside on lacks clicks to waltk through bioroids. And brain damage is the best damage against Wyldeside. Plus HB has program thrashing for those virus hosting Djinns.

That's why I suggest the deck list below. It's not exciting but is effective. It has a bad game against Gabriel, commonly played in tournaments, hence is not fashionable. The deck has 22 ice (Accelerated Beta Test), plenty of economy (including Caduceus, Pop-Up, Requisition & HB identity) with big ice to leverage 6 of your agendas, as well as Archives control (Vitruvius, Memories), not to mention program thrashing (Ichi, Rototurret, Secretary). Overall, HB has the best features to beat Noise.

 

 Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (49 cards, 21 agenda pts)

15/15 influence: •••••••••••••••

Agenda (9)

·         3 Accelerated Beta Test 

·         3 Priority Requisition 

·         3 Project Vitruvius 

Asset (13)

·         3 Adonis Campaign 

·         2 Aggressive Secretary 

·         2 Melange Mining Corp 

·         3 PAD Campaign 

·         3 Private Contracts 

Operation (5)

·         2 Archived Memories 

·         3 Hedge Fund 

Barrier (5)

·         3 Eli 1.0 

·         2 Heimdall 1.0 

Code Gate (9)

·         3 Pop-up Window •••

·         3 Tollbooth ••••• •

·         3 Viper 

Sentry (8)

·         3 Caduceus ••••• •

·         3 Ichi 1.0 

·         2 Rototurret 

 

 

6 agendas are installed masquerading as an asset then next turn advanced 3 to score. Priority Requisitions are installed and advanced 2, just like a Secretary. Stack your bioroids. With your economy, you will be able to build a fortress of ice with towers on relevant servers. Running your towers will become so expensive that the runner will suffer credit fatigue, unable to repeatedly run, leaving you windows of opportunity to score.

Don't forget to virus wipe when worthwhile. 2 Imp counters can deny you more economy than 3 clicks can generate. Don't be afraid to discard an excess card face down into Archives. You will probably never install nor need all your 22 ice. They are there for your agenda and to install the right ice against the right opponent (e.g avoid Viper and Caduceus against high link). Don't forget the wasted run bait value of Private Contracts.

It's not an exciting build.  But it's best to first learn to pilot a basic Big Ice deck before attempting the subteties of other decks, most of which need more than 1 Core set of cards. Good luck.



#6 DeckBuilder

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

In retrospect, I put too much credit generation ice in that last build above, You should modify the build as follows

-3 Pop-Up Window, -3 Viper, +3 Ash, +2 Chum, +1 Wall of Thorns

This reduces your ice count to 19 (fine fior a situational optional trigger of Accelerated Beta Test) but Ash gives you greater flexibility, adding to the "is this unadvanced card an agenda or asset/upgrade?" masquerading. Doubled up, it protects your other card there and is like another ice, just that you never pay install costs. It is obviously best at the end of deep servers.

Chum is used as a counter to Femme played on Tollbooth (if the runner has Ninja, in front of Ichi can be painful too). Caduceus is a great "soft defence" against Gabriel (put it on HQ then Archives) which is a bad match-up for any Big Ice deck. Note that I avoid Yog-vulnerable codegates and try to minimise reliance on trace (Ash, Caduceus & Ichi trace) in case of a linked up Shaper or Andromeda.

Against Noise, Ash and a Tollbooth (plus other ice) on Archives is a great defence against that alpha strike game winning run. But the main defence you have is Prpject Vitruvius. Use Ash in your remote fort to overadvance it. Now just before Noise accesses Archives, you can denude it of agendas with the Vitruvius counters.

Yes, the above build  is definitely better with Ash for a bit more tricksiness. Without it, it's just too dull and brutally efficient. with overkill credit generation. "Haas-Boring" indeed.

If you are not enthused by this approach, the only other competitive build I can think is possible with your pool (1 Core, no ASIS) is to play NBN (core) with elements of Tempo (Anonymous Tip, Closed Accounts to slow runner) and Fast-Advance (SanSan City Grid, Trick of Light on Ice Wall or Shadow or Ghost Branch, Psychographics after Midseason Replacements or Ghost Branch or ignored Data Raven) . This is more fragile but more fun to play. With Future Proof, NBN now have the best agendas. They just need some good low cost ice and more importantly economy. However, NBN is definitely harder to play than HB and Weyland.



#7 ReploidArmada

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:07 AM

Thanks for the HB build. I think I'll have a better time understanding and learning how to play that than my Jinteki deck from earlier. I do have a question regarding Ash, though. Will timing rules allow me to rez him during a run on his installed server, ideally before the runner accesses the asset/agenda, or would I have to rez him in advance?



#8 DeckBuilder

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:43 AM

Ash.

You always rez him just before the runner accesses that server, That's why it's devastating as the runner is often too broke to beat the trace or, if he does, is unable to trash Ash as well as interact with the other card in the server, In the case of Noise, Ash (and Red Herring) is very good at protecting Archives (ideally with a Tollbooth in front).

You can have multiple Ash installed (even in 1 server). You can only have 1 rezzed at any 1 time as a unique.

When facing Criminal, Ash is amazing in HQ to protect against Account Siphon (it is a trace that can't be broken). Related to that, all your assets and upgrades can be rezzed just before accessing HQ during an Account Siphon to deny the runner money (this is the only time you don't rez PAD and Adonis at the end of runner's turn).

Ash is for builds with deep verticals. Because having a Cell Portal-like ice (which is what Ash does: run this server again) with no install cost is invaluable in such servers.

Ash is there to help score Priority Requisition against a runner who is rich enough to run your remote once but not twice (and you have enough to rez Ash for 2 and beat his left over credits with trace 4+ and still keep 3 to advance the agenda next turn). This situation does happen more than you think. So now you have the worry of Aggressive Secretary and Ash to help score your big agenda.

Finally, Ash is great bait to prompt an expensive run on a previously empty remote (you don't rez him in this case). This in turn deters the runner from your unadvanced agendas. Which you then triple advance to score next turn.



#9 ArcticSnake

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:19 AM

If you're too honest, avoid playing Jinteki.  You need to learn to bluff to make a Jinteki deck really work.  You have to be able to sell that the card you are putting down is a trap when it's an agenda, or vice versa.  Watch your body language, try to figure out if you have any "tells". Do you look uncertain when you install/advance an agenda? Do you look confident or smug when you install/advance a trap? Mix that up a bit.  The important thing is you maximize the runner's uncertainty about the cards. The more uncertain the runner, the more likely he is to make a mistake. Against Jinteki, a mistake can prove fatal.


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