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Triggered Effects


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#1 Old Ben

Old Ben

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:01 PM

Berto
Hello,
The Queens of Thorns can cancel trigerred effect. I found somwhere that trigerred effect is every effect with :, but I think that its every effect which can be activated by a player. Lets show you example (our real situation).
There was military plot revelaed which gives you 2 locations if you win military chalange.
If my opponents wins challenge can I cancel this part of the plot which mention about searching deck for location?

Second problem barracks vs Queen. Discardin barracj is a cost, but can I wait until opp will choose card which will be put into play and then cancle that effect or should I immediately cancel searching?

Thanks in advance for giving some light to those subjects...

Old Ben
You might be messing taht up with the ability of Expendabl eally, WInter Cersei & Arrest and Imprison to cancel the traitors ability - a charachter ability.

You can´t wait for your opponent to search for a charachter since this is already part of the effect of Winterfell barracks and doesn´t belong to the costs, so after costs have been paid you´ll have to decide if you want to cancel the ability or not.
Ktom is sure able to explain it better if needed.

Ktom
Old Ben is correct:
berto wrote:
I found somwhere that trigerred effect is every effect with :, but I think that its every effect which can be activated by a player.


This is correct on the face of it: "Triggered Effects" are indeed any effect that a player CHOOSES to activate. But the is something you might be missing here. A passive effect, like the location search on the Battle of the Blackwater plot, is not something that the player CHOOSES to activate. If that is their plot and they win a military challenge, the have to go get the location. There is no choice. Triggered effects, by the definition put forth in the FAQ, carry an element of whether or not the player wants to activate the effect. So if they player cannot say "no, I don't want to do that right now," it isn't a triggered effect.

Look at it this way: there is another plot that says "every player that does not win a military challenge this phase must choose and kill a character at the end of the phase." If that is my plot and I end up not winning a military challenge, can I refuse to activate the plot effect? Nope. I MUST resolve it because it is passive and the conditions for its activation took place. So you see, _I_ didn't activate the effect. It wasn't triggered.

Now, in theory, since passive effects do have a specific initiation step, I could cancel it with an appropriate cancel Response. There just aren't that many.
berto wrote:
Second problem barracks vs Queen. Discardin barracj is a cost, but can I wait until opp will choose card which will be put into play and then cancle that effect or should I immediately cancel searching?


As Old Ben said, the cancel prevents the effects, but not the costs. That is because the cancel comes between paying the costs and resolving the effects. The effects of the Barracks are "search you deck for a character, put it into play, etc.," so the cancel comes between paying the cost (of discarding the location) and that whole effect. So you do not get to see which character your opponent would go get. You must play the cancel before the opponent even picks up their deck to search it.

It's a little different for cards that actually target (i.e. say something like "choose a character..."). That's because designating target cards is part of paying the costs. So for something like the event "Allies of Necessity" that specifically says "choose 2 characters," you WOULD get to see which characters your opponent wants to put into play before deciding to trigger your cancel. Winterfell Barracks does not say something like "choose a character in your deck," so it technically is not targeting a character as part of initiating the effect.

Old Ben
As usually perfect explanation. Regarding this plot you are right I fought it says you can choose up to two location. If plot has above text I assume that it will be trigerred effect.
What about atachements? As far as I know they are not treated as trigerred effects (Frozen solid turns off Eyrie for example) but from the other side eventa are treated as a trigerred both are executed by player so we can say are trigerred by player.

AegonTargayen
As a general rule, cards with triggered effects always include a bold printed description when they can be triggered ("Any Phase:", "Dominance Phase:" etc. or "Response:") followed by a description of costs and effect. Note that all events have this template and thus all events a considered triggered effects.

Don´t try to look for triggered effects anywhere else and your life will be much easier

Ktom
AegonTargaryen wrote:
Don´t try to look for triggered effects anywhere else and your life will be much easier .


Yup. But if you want to know why...
berto wrote:
As usually perfect explanation. Regarding this plot you are right I fought it says you can choose up to two location. If plot has above text I assume that it will be trigerred effect.


No. The element of choice that defines a triggered effect is choosing WHEN the effect happens. Choosing what the effect happens to is a completely separate consideration. A triggered effect (like, say, Westeros Bleeds) does not necessarily have to have a chosen target. If a player cannot say "I want this to happen NOW" or, often more to the point, "I DON'T want this to happen now," it is not defined as a triggered effect.

And that choice of "when" must be direct. The plot's effect will happen when its particular conditions are met whether you want them to or not. Manipulating the conditions under which an effect MUST activate is not the same thing as specifically choosing to activate (or not activate) that effect. Watering a plant and putting it in the sunlight is not actually the same thing as "activating" the plant's growth. You are providing favorable conditions for it to do its thing, but the plant actually does the growing on its own.
berto wrote:
What about atachements? As far as I know they are not treated as trigerred effects (Frozen solid turns off Eyrie for example) but from the other side eventa are treated as a trigerred both are executed by player so we can say are trigerred by player.


Two things to consider here. Frozen Solid (and like attachments) are not triggered because you do not actually choose for their effects to take place. Once the card is in play, the effect happens whether you want it to or not. For example, you could play a Frozen Solid on your oppoent's Eyrie, then play "From East to West" to take control of it. However, once you control the location, you cannot "shut off" your attachment. It's in play, so it works.

Therefore, the only choice you have in when Frozen Solid works is when you play the card - and we're right back to the fact that controlling the conditions under which the card acts is not the same thing as choosing to use/not use that card's actual effect. Now, you might say "sure, but I chose to play the attachment; isn't THAT a triggered effect?" The answer to that is "no." The definitions of for triggered, passive and constant effects only apply to card effects and abilities. The MECHANICS of playing those cards (or revealing plots) are not actual card effect. They are game effects that result in the card being in play. So while you choose to use the game mechanic of Marshaling the attachment, you are not actually triggering the attachment's effect, which happens automatically as a result of the card being in play.

Playing events is a little different. Essentially, a card effect is all that an event IS. Playing that card from your hand is, more or less, part of the cost of triggering that effect. So playing an event from your hand is the only way to trigger the card's effect. Playing an event from your hand counts as a triggered card effect, but playing an attachment (or character, or location, or revealing a plot) does not.

Hope that all makes sense.






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