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Spinning Slash v. Final Words


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#1 Old Ben

Old Ben

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:59 PM

FuriousG:


So yesterday I was engaged in a friendly melee, playing a Stark deck while one opponent played Targ.

The previous turn, I had played Final Words on Dany, which reads:

Response: After a challenge in which attached character participated resolves, kill attached character (cannot be saved).

Targ wins initiative, elects to go first, and then initiates an intrigue challenge with Dany, playing spinning slash, the text of which reads:

Choose an attacking character. Until the end of the phase, that character gets +2 STR. If you win the challenge, choose and discard an attachment from play.

The challenge goes unopposed as I lacked intrigue icons, and he wins. The question we had, was how do the two cards end up resolving? It would seem to me that you have to "win" the challenge before you enter the "resolve" portion of the challenge phase, which would mean he could use spinning slash to avoid the kill effect of final words.

What is the correct ruling on this?



Ktom:


Well, it's a little more complicated than that. Here's the sequence:

1. All passives and Responses to anything involved in winning the challenge, resolving claim, claiming power for unopposed and claiming power for Renown must wait until all 4 of those things have been completed. So it isn't a matter of "wins the challenge" coming before "challenge resolves." The opportunity to trigger passive and Responses for both happen at the same time.

2. Passives always happen before Responses. The attachment's "kill" is a Response. The earlier event's lasting effect for discarding attachments is resolved passively, assuming the Targ player won the challenge. So the attachment is discarded (passively) BEFORE the controller of the attachment has the chance to trigger the Response.

3. However, when the attachment is discarded, it enters a the temporary "moribund" state. Specifically, the attachment will not be physically removed from play until ALL passives and Responses to winning the challenge, resolving the challenge, etc. have been resolved. So the attachment is still on the table when the chance to use its Response comes up.

So taken all together, the correct ruling would be that even though Spinning Slash would discard the attachment first, Final Words could still kill Dany "on the way out." (That only happens because the attachment is a Response, BTW; there really aren't as many "on the way out" things in this game as there are in others.)


FuriousG:


Cool.

When we were talking out the resolution, I started to argue something similar to this, but I fooled myself into thinking I came up with a nonsense position just because the final words was mine

 






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