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First attempt at deckbuilding - help/advice appreciated (Corp - HB)


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#1 Dodd81

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

Hi all, I’m new to Netrunner and below is my first attempt at deckbuilding, so if you could give me your thoughts on it, it’d be appreciated. Any glaring weaknesses, things I could improve on? Any schoolboy errors?

I have 1 core set and What Lies Ahead and I built this deck with credits in mind. I wanted it to be a real money maker, never short on credits. 

Thanks. 

 

Agenda points = 20

Deck size= 49

Influence = 15 

 

Agenda 

(12) 

 

 

Accelerated Beta Test x1

Posted Bounty x2

Nisei MK II x3

Priority Requisition x1

Hostile Takeover x3

Project Atlas x1

Mandatory Upgrades x1 

 

Ice (17) 

 

Wall of Static x3

Hunter x2

Roboturret x2

Enigma x3

Ichi 1.0 x2

Heimdall 1.0 x2

Chum x1

Viktor 1.0 x2 

 

Asset (10) 

 

Security Subcontract x1

Snare x1

Melange Mining Corp x1

Adonis Campaign x3

Project Junebug x2

PAD Campaign x2 

Operation (8) 

Hedge Fund x3

Archived Memories x1

Aggressive Negotiation x1

Beanstalk Royalties x3 

 

Upgrade (2) 

 

SanSan City Grid x1

Red Herrings x1

 


 



#2 nungunz

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:00 PM

The deck is illegal, you can't have out-of-faction agendas.



#3 nungunz

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:08 PM

I also count 17 influence.

Rebuild the deck and make sure it's legal to play, from there we can help out more.



#4 Dodd81

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:34 PM

Haha! I knew I'd miss something! Thanks guys, I'll get on it. 



#5 Dodd81

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:57 PM

 

Right, let's have another go then! 

Same theme as in the first post, but hopefully a legal deck now. I had the manual in front of me, I don't know how I missed the no out of faction agendas rule!

 

Any advice appreciated.

Agenda Points = 20

Deck Size = 48

Influence = 15

 

Agenda (9)      

Accelerated Beta Test x3

 

Priority Requisition x2

Private Security Force x3

 

 

 

Mandatory Upgrades x1

 

Ice (17)    

Wall of Static x3 

Hunter x2 

Roboturret x2 

Enigma x3 

Ichi 1.0 x2 

Heimdall 1.0 x2 

Chum x1 

Viktor 1.0 x2    

 

Asset (11)    

Security Subcontract x1 

Snare x1 

Melange Mining Corp x1 

Adonis Campaign x3 

Project Junebug x2 

PAD Campaign x2  

Aggresive Secretary x1

 

Operation (9)  

Hedge Fund x3

Archived Memories x2

Aggressive Negotiation x1 

Beanstalk Royalties x3    

 

Upgrade (2)   

SanSan City Grid x1 

Red Herrings x1

 



#6 Dodd81

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

No idea why the test is all bunching up like that either. Before I press publish, it's all in an easy to read list. Sorry.



#7 DeckBuilder

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:39 AM

In an attempt to drum up some activity on this forum, I will rise to this challenge based on your limited card pool. The majority of your deck list are good choices but the deck just needs focus as it seems to be a mix of strategies (a bit of tagging, a bit of net damage etc). It would've been good if you had written a few paragraphs explaining your decision-making. Here is my recommended strategy with your card pool.

 

Haas-Bioroid Core Identity: 49 cards, 21 agenda points, 15 influence (1 Core + WLA)

Economy (14): 3x Adonis Campaign, 3x PAD Campaign, 2x Melange Mining Corp, 3x Hedge Fund, 3x Priority Requisition (+ Haas-Bioroid identity)

Defences (20): 2x Heimdall, 3x Wall of Static, 3x Tollbooth (6 inf), 2x Chum (2 inf), 2x Viktor, 3x Ichi, 2x Rototurret, 3x Accelerated Beta Test

Fast Advance (7): 3x Biotic Labour, 1x SanSan City Grid (3 inf), 3x Mandatory Upgrade

Delays (8): 3x Ash, 2x Red Herring (4 inf), 1x Corporate Troubleshooter, 2x Aggressive Secretary

 

Your basic strategy: Create 1 remote fort server, first protecting central servers, priority based on runner identity. Use upgrades Ash, Red Herring and Corporate Troubleshooter to delay runner 1 turn to score Mandatory Upgrade in 2 turns from hand using Biotic Labour or SanSan. Your upgrades and protected assets (not PAD) pose as potential agendas making ABT easy to score from unadvanced if alone in root server (looks like an upgrade or asset). ABT is scored from hand with a Biotic + 6 credits when your remote fort has Melange in it. You only action ABT if your Archives is safe or the game is otherwise lost (as you only have 17 quality ICE). As 6 agendas must be left advanced, Aggressive Secretary (install and advance 2), if bait taken, temporarily makes that empty remote fort safe to follow-up score MU. It's also a deterrent to make the runner wary, especially with repeat play against the same opponents. Once MU is scored, you will be very unlucky to lose as you grind out your click advantage.

Some tactics: Chum is best placed in front of Tollbooth (especially with a Femme counter on it) else Ichi. Stack Bioroids of different types in the same server. Surprise rez Troubleshooter on approach to make a rezzed Ichi (or Rototurret vs. Ninja) into a Secretary if too strong to break. Multiple Ash can be installed (but only 1 unique can be rezzed at a time). Ash is generally better than Red Herring (except vs. high link) as successful Ash trace protects all other cards there. However Troubleshooter (with economic advantage over runner) is best as it protects for whole turn while other upgrades can be repeat run (hence should be played in a deep remote fort). Your unrezzed upgrades are also decoys to tempt runner to run fearing ABT then he is too broke to re-run when you install and advance a big agenda next turn so don't rez upgrades until absolutely needed (or to foil an Account Siphon). The tactic is to confuse and trick the runner by mixing up your agendas, assets, upgrades and ambushes. You don't have the ICE to protect your PADs in undefended remotes, rezzed at the end of the runner turn (for minimum break even with HB identity benefit, costing runner 4). Virus wipe Imp counters before placing assets and upgrades.

An alternative build (with your pool) is lots of ice (as big as you can get) + Precognition + ABT + Archived Memories (leveraging big ice synergy with Priority Requisition). But I feel the above is a superior build. However, this is more a question of playing style.

If I were you, I'd invest in Cyber Exodus for key cards for many factions, currently the meta-defining data pack.

Hope this helps.



#8 Dodd81

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

Thanks a lot for posting on this and helping me out, and for giving it a go with my limited card pool in mind.

I wanted to create a deck with a really strong economy, but beyond that, my inexperience shows. I'm going to study your ideas, make some changes and test it out this weekend.

I'll be sure to branch out into the other data packs over time.

Thanks again.

 



#9 DeckBuilder

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

No problem. I smiled when I saw that you had initially built with different faction agendas. If it's any consolation, I did the same initially!

(I also thought 0 cards in grip was flatline, bad publicity was per turn and I'm sure many other errors as I rush-learnt the rules.)

Whilst HB core has an amazing identity ability (and Adonis) to base an economy-driven strategy (the only Corp that can always rez an 8-cost big ice in runner's first turn), its Bioroid weakness can be triggered by any runner without any aid. Hence initially a bioroid can be a bit porous as a good runner will always run HB on first click. However, they are paying valuable clicks not spent developing their board position. Once you start stacking the Bioroids, this weakness of needing breakers is mitigated. Just mentioing this as I had a huge argument when first playing against HB trying to convince my also new opponent that Gabe can just walk through. And thank goodness most of its ICE has this weakness (otherwise undercosted for their stats) else HB will be far too good. However, a clever Corp can exploit this with pain ICE (like Wall of Ice, the latter used in the Precog big ice ABT build) as the cocky runner suddenly face checks for pain. This build prefers Chum because of its synergy with Tollbooth (if when encountered they end run or bypass using Femme Fatale, they take damage) as Tollbooth is such a monster of a card in a Core + WLA environment, always used by Corp, prompting runner to include 1 influence Femme Fatale to bypass them, so then Corp adds Chum to counter Femme on Tollbooth etc.

Note also you should never have more than 3 code gates of 3 or less strength (your initial build had 5) because of Yog.0, commonly found in Anarch and Criminal (only 1 influence). My preference is to go all in with bioroids due to stacking them mitigating their weakness hence Viktor over Enigma (as Viktor costs more to break) but many disagree with this. Viktor is for the longer game as it will cost the runner more, Enigma is more certain to stop the runner in the early game if attempting tn rush through an early agenda (which the above build does not do). Where Enigma is good is in tempting the runner to "run on last click" (hence save 1 credit breaking that subroutine), great in a tagging deck with tag punishment (Scorched Earth or Closed Accounts). I've mentioned this when I remember building exactly as you did, only to face Yog.0 and realise I'm best off thrashing all the rezzed cheap code gates to save on install costs. It's an easy mistake to make.

On the topic of trashing ice, you listed Security Subcontracts. The problem is your ICE is actually good (for your pool) and your economy is already good (the list above has every economic card that costs no influence in your pool, including the amazing in-faction Adonis that like PAD is rezzed at the end of runner turn and temporarily occupies your remote fort for clickless economy). The only use I've found for Security Subcontracts is in a cash-poor Jinteki PE deck with 3x Chum, 3x Hunter (Chum in front of Hunter is a very cheap deterrent as 6 strength sentry is very expensive to break - see Ninja), 3x Draco (Chum in front of Draco is a permanent Troubleshooter), 3x Data Mine (Chum in front = 4 net damage without great Crypsis/rubbish Wyrm), 3x Ice Wall, 3x Pop-Up Window (great to power your Junebug after Account Siphon/Vamp tries to make you unable to pay for your ambushes), 3x Snowflake (where you sometimes want them to guess right and access your Junebug, instilling doubt in their mind). So apart from amazing Neural Katana, there were 21 ice of cost 1 or less thrashed to Security Subcontracts (Data Mine cannot be thrashed to it without Forged Activation Orders). Now that is a design where 3x Security Subcontracts was the unconventional credit engine. Because that 1 click nets you only +3 credits on what a click can get you - and that ICE is generally far more valuable if chosen and placed well.

The only other card I disagreed strongly with was Aggressive Negotiations. This is a card for specific game-winning combo, most usually Sea Source + Scorched Earth, where you need the other card. There is no such combo in your pool for HB. This card is now never played by Weyland because of Project Atlas. And really, you will find it is a card that just does not work when your most valuable resource is a click and it costs a click to play during a crucial scoring turn.

Apart from those 2 cards, all your other cards listed are good choices - but often in other decks. Hunter or Snare + PSF is nice but weak compared to say Data Raven + PSF (especially with a Chum in front of Raven raising it to 6 strength). Yes, HB brain damage + Jinteki net damage + PSF meat damage do synergise - if you manage to pull it off. I do appreciate where you are going with your build. And I can't fault your ambition. It's just that your list just tries to do too many things whilst it should try to make sure that its cards synergise as much as possible into a coherent strategy.

On the other hand, in an environment where your opponent is also new to the game, your ambition may well bear fruit. So please feel free to try it out like you have built it (just with Subcontracts and Negotiations changed to more Chums or Junbugs). Flatline victories are always more enjoyable (I fell in love with Jinteki when my Kate walked into a 3-advance Junebug in my first game). But if you want to consistently win (whilst tricking the opponent in subtle ways like wasting all his credits running on an unrezzed Ash), I would advise trying out the Upgrades strategy detailed above.

I apologise if I have been unwittingly condescending, I'm just trying to help and advise as requested. In fact, I have highlighted all the numerous errors I used to make. For a first deck build, your listing is far better than mine ever was. I sense a tricksy player who also wants a strong economy, HB, with its asset-based economy that costs 1 less (install bonus), can play horizontal better than Jinteki with your card pool. I mistakenly responded with the optimum HB build for your pool. But maybe what you wanted was the minimum tweaks needed that keeps within your build concept? (Which sadly is hard to spot due to the format).

Apologies fpr the length of this post (it's been a dead day at work) but hopefully there are some useful bits in it. I will post a "HB tries to be Jinteki" build in an hour. Sadly I have to go to a meeting. Work, dammit, it gets in the way of my hobbies…

 

 



#10 Dodd81

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:28 AM

Not condescending in the slightest, I'm finding your insight fascinating.

Coming onboard with Netrunner - already 6 data packs strong - with all its complexity and intricacies, has been an interesting and at times overwhelming experience. But very enjoyable.

I can't imagine getting to the point where I can speak about the game as well and as informed as yourself and many others on this forum, but I'm immersing myself in videos, podcasts and articles on the subject and picking little things up as I go.

I'm going to build the deck you've suggested and try it out. I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers!



#11 DeckBuilder

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

Ok, I think this is the deck below that you are trying to build: "HB playing as Jinteki".

 

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (49 cards, 21 agenda pts)

15/15 influence: •••••••••••••••

Agenda (9)

·         3 Accelerated Beta Test 

·         3 Priority Requisition 

·         3 Private Security Force 

Asset (17)

·         3 Adonis Campaign 

·         2 Aggressive Secretary 

·         2 Melange Mining Corp 

·         3 PAD Campaign 

·         3 Project Junebug •••

·         3 Snare! ••••• •

·         1 Zaibatsu Loyalty 

Operation (3)

·         3 Hedge Fund 

Barrier (8)

·         2 Heimdall 1.0 

·         3 Wall of Static 

·         3 Wall of Thorns •••

Code Gate (7)

·         2 Chum ••

·         3 Enigma 

·         2 Viktor 1.0 

Sentry (5)

·         3 Ichi 1.0 

·         2 Rototurret 

 

 

I'm sorry for posting what I felt was the optimal build for your card pool. That wasn't the request and I apologise for the misunderstanding.

20 ice (15 with end the run) makes ABT far more attractive to use. Maximising economy assets (best with HB core identity), with 6 agendas that help to free rez your big ice, as well as Hedge Funds, this is ample economy.

I chose Zaibatsu Loyalty (you have 8 traps to mix up with your 9 agendas in a shell game of multiple single ice remotes, ABT played unadvanced like a Snare, plus mind games by denying exposure of harmless ice) where you chose Security Subcontracts (this list has no very cheap ice) but I appreciate that the latter is insurance against Yog.0 (which can be hit by your 7 program trashing cards). If your opponents have a similar card pool, Infiltration is a runner almost auto-include. Obviously ZL requires no protection.

There's no support for PSF beyond Ichi trace 1 (needs economy) and Snare; both deal damage with a tag, setting you up for the flatiline. PSF's ability could occasionally win you the game after a last click Snare! access in R&D, HQ or remote, last click enticed by rezzed bioroids or Enigma in front of R&D, HQ or remote. It's also best to have all 3 Snare! to make Maker's Eye dangerous when you have 8 credits.

The first game against this deck can be a nasty surprise as runner confidently runs HB on first click thinking it can click-thru dangerous subroutines - only to meet a Wall of Thorns! Chums are best placed in front of Ichi (so it is a strength 6 sentry) but can also be placed in front of lower strength code gates when facing Yog.0 in Criminal (Anarch sadly has data suckers/Ice Carver). When facing Ninja as the runner's killer, Chum is also useful in front of Rototurret, taxing the runner 3 more.

The deck above is essentially your deck concept (never spelled out) of mixing Jinteki net, HB brain and PSF meat damage. I believe the Mandatory Upgrades build is a more competitive deck (it "grinds" out victories with click advantage) but, as a Jinteki player by preference, your deck concept which I tweaked above is certainly more fun.

I wish you luck with your exploration of this great game. It would be great to hear what deck you finally built for this weekend and how you fared.

 

 



#12 DeckBuilder

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

 

 

 



#13 Angus Lee

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:44 PM

What is the meaning of the mysterious empty message above?  It makes this thread to be unread all the time.


Once ... Always ...

My blog (in Simplified Chinese): http://blog.sina.com/b0ardgames

#14 Dodd81

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:51 PM

That's brilliant, thanks. Built and ready for testing!

I'll let you know how it goes. 



#15 nungunz

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:32 AM

I'd swap Private Security Force for Project Vitruvious (If you have the data pack).  You really have no way to tag the runner so there is no point in using PSF.

I'm worried that a runner will just simply ignore remotes with this deck.  That might change once you start going horizontal

This looks very similar to an NBN Never Advance deck.  Though I'd probably swap Junebug for Edge of World and ditch Zaibutsu if you need to free up one influence.  Your biggest defense against getting agendas stolen in the remotes is to never advance anything when you play it (priority req throws a wrench in that plan).  Keep the runner guessing.

With the Never Advance strategy everything looks like an asset/agenda and they start panicking.  However they may just hammer your centrals over and over to keep pressure up.

 

Archived Memories would be a huge help in this deck to protect against milling and ABTs gone wrong (if you use it at all).



#16 DeckBuilder

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:02 AM

Everything you say makes great sense. Unfortunately, the OP only has 1 Core + WLA, made clear with the many references to "your card pool".

In fact, the "HB plays Jinteki" build above is strictly a 1 Core deck!

Of course there are better builds with more cards. But the Jinteki build should entertain him and his opponents. Whilst delaying the runner to score Upgrades was probably the best option once WLA was added to Core.

We all started somewhere. Considering it is his first ever build and the above 15 Jinteki influence build has only minor tweaks on his original, the depth and ambition was actually very impressive. A shame that his formating (and not explaining his strategy) hid this.

I for one am jealous that he now gets to experience that early learning curve, the joys of discovering combos, feints and ploys. Feints ike first turn facing ice on HQ and R&D, first click run HQ to rez its ice then Maker's Eye. Ploys like install and advance a Secretary when runner is too broke to run its remote anticipating Stimhack. The game is so much more than dry strategising of selecting synergetic cards within the 15 influence limitation.

I hope he enjoys this early part of the game journey (that we are all still enjoying) as much as I did. There is no reason for him to accelerate his learning curve until he feels he is ready for an injection of fresh cards. For you can never unlearn. Sigh.



#17 Dodd81

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

Tested the deck yesterday in 3 games and it won them all.

I don't consider it fully tested as I was playing with a friend who I've taught the game to and also with my first Runner deckbuild, which, needless to say, isn't up to scratch. More on that in a moment.

The HB deck flatlined the runner twice - once landing on a Snare with only two cards in his hand, and the second time hitting a 3 times advanced Junebug.

My friend had a go with the deck and it was much closer, both of us with 4 points worth of Agendas for a good while before he scored Priority Requisition for the win. Not to take anything away from him, but I think that game lasted longer than it should have thanks to my fractionally better knowledge of the game, it certainly wasn't down to the Runner deck.

The Runner deck was my second attempt at deckbuilding: A Whizzard deck with the intentions of being an aggressive runner, trashing plenty of cards. When we were using it though, it struggled with its economy and never had the right tools. It probably would have faired better against a Core-only HB, running on that first click, but of course it had the likes of Wall of Thorns to contend with here.

The theme of the deck is not unlike your "Noise - Hacker Extraordinaire" build in another member's post. With 1 core set and WLA, I'm 10 or so cards shy of being able to replicate it. I will study it and see if I can find some alternatives.

Thanks again for your help with this. I'm enjoying the learning experience.

And thanks to nungunz for your input. Very helpful and I'll be sure to have a play around with these ideas once I've delved further into the data packs.

 






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