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'Hoth' mechanic seems lazy


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#1 vermillian

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:11 AM

Anyone with me on that? Really like the mechanics and deckbuilding, not happy on force packs. What will the next cycle be, Bespin? If you have more Bespin than others, get goodies?

Lazy, uninventive, overplayed, flavorless mechanic.



#2 ScottieATF

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:03 AM

vermillian said:

Anyone with me on that? Really like the mechanics and deckbuilding, not happy on force packs. What will the next cycle be, Bespin? If you have more Bespin than others, get goodies?

Lazy, uninventive, overplayed, flavorless mechanic.

I don't know where you are getting the assumption that future expansions will use that mechanic when this one has really only used it for one affiliations abilities.

#3 vermillian

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:09 AM

One affiliations abilities for now… but doesn't the DS also have a 'something happens specifically to a 'hoth' objective' ability as well?

And I'm saying that this mechanic is lazy because it can't and shouldn't be repeated.

And what happens two cycles from now? Clearly the 'have more hoth stuff' deck will get its boost auto.



#4 geki

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:00 AM

To be fair, there are two different mechanics which you seem to condense in one:

 

1) On the one side, the "if you control more" mechanic, which is very thematic with the Battle for Hoth: it is the only moment in the trilogy - or in the saga, for that matter - in which gaining ground and position is crucial to the fight (beside being by far the most imponent ground battle).

I agree with you that, if repeated, it could lead to weird situations: "Oh, I have more Hoth than you, you have more Bespin than me, nothing anyone can do about it", but this will be mitigated by the variety of decks. Having a Hoth-only deck, in the future, will mean sensibly limiting one's choices.

 

2) The other one (if you have something "Hoth" named) is instead a more radical mechanic in SWLCG, the very clever (in my opinion) use of "traits" to create a thematic feel.

On this note, I am thrilled, but I fear the diluition of traits.

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#5 divinityofnumber

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:09 AM

I don't think that the Hoth cycle's mechanics are lazy at all. I quite enjoy deck-building in SW:LCG, and I think that the way the Hoth features have been rolling out make people think quite a bit when building. For instance, some cards could have a nice ability, but be dependent on you contorlling more Hoth objectives than your opponent. So, it makes you have to think about running a bunch of other Hoth objectives, which may or may not play into the dynamics of the deck that you are trying to build. FFG has done a great job of that with this game; often you find an objective that contains a card or two that are crucial to your deck-building ends, but also contain a couple of completely irrelevant cards that are awful. I love the deck-building give-and-take with this game. The Hoth mechanics have given us even more deck-building complexity in that regard. 


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#6 vermillian

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:40 AM

I suppose this mechanic will work itself out later. Right now it is "Hmmm… I need more Hoth keyword… guess I'll throw more in and be 'ok' if it doesn't happen" where as later it'll be "Ok… so I could do this 'reward for having lots of hoth' which I'll likely win, but then I won't be able to play with these awesome sets in the Coruscant Cycle".

I didn't mean to say that the entire Hoth cycle is full of nothing but bad mechanics (reserve that for another thread. lol j/k). I am saying "Elves get stronger with other elves… decks built! Let's just throw everything elf into the deck!" mechanic is weak. At the moment, that is how it feels. Objective number 37, 38, 39, 40 AND 42 all are contingent or better by having 'Hoth' in your deck. A small scant 43 and 45 in the second force pack, but it still feels like it is milking a dead cow (well… dead in my play book). Have X (which normally does nothing) get Y.
 

I suppose ALL card games have this to some effect… IDK. Maybe I'm played out in regards to card games of this nature…



#7 Zacky Midnight

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:48 PM

but your only looking at one card in the pod…the objective itself



#8 spalanzani

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:24 AM

I can kinda see your point, that once the game develops it will possibly mean an automatic boost if you play Hoth stuff and your opponent doesn't, but I don't feel the game will grow in that sort of direction. Because the DS and LS have Hoth objectives that grant Hoth-based bonuses, I would imagine any conjectured Bespin cycle or Coruscant cycle that would look to do the same would provide the LS and DS with as many objective sets that are awesome, so that both sides will most likely want to include some, and so leaving it open to chance as to whether you do in fact control more Hoth objectives because your opponent will most likely control more Endor objectives. 

As geki says, though, the mechanic works for Hoth and this cycle because the entire battle was about who controls more of the planet, with the Rebels' hold over the icecube slipping away as the Imperials landed. It doesn't make sense from the thematic point of view for Rebels to control more of Coruscant and get bonuses that way. 

I don't think that the particular mechanic of controlling more objectives of a particular trait than your opponent will become the standard for this game, anyway.


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#9 dbmeboy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:28 AM

This is really just a case of linear vs modular card design.  Bottom line: card games should have some of both.  I wouldn't expect every cycle to have a linear theme though.



#10 vermillian

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:39 AM

Perhaps I am just discouraged by the Hoth cycle BECAUSE of this linearity in design (thanks for the article post! I'd read things on that a long time ago. It was refreshing to see it again!).

1.) Linear design in product acquisition.

A) I bought the first pack of Hoth cycle. I got 4 objective sets of cards I couldn't use effectively ON THEIR OWN (that is, with those and the core set). Imagine if I put just those Hoth objective sets into my deck: 2/10 chance (well a touch more) of them synergizing… not great. Making only a few of the objectives in the pack worthwhile.

B) Forcing additional purchases from later in the Hoth cycle for the purchase I already made to be effective. Granted, when buying product that is modular in interactive design, you'll need to make more purchases. They just don't feel as heavy handed and specific as these Hoth purchase.

C) Consider also FUTURE product. After the Hoth cycle, will they trickle in some additional Hoth items? (unlikely…? look at Summer / Winter mechanic in AGOT: it finally got a revisit after YEARS of product in between). Certainly we'll have "these 6 hoth objectives and these 4 <insert room for other objectives in future sets>".

2.) I just don't like linear design, I guess. Or perhaps not in this form of a collation… though I suppose it might be BETTER this way, because I can just NOT BUY the product altogether, but the problem with that is similar to oher problems with linear set design: When slivers are hot, everyone plays slivers. (MtG reference)

3.) Hoth did not need to be linear. They could have represented the struggle for Hoth in a different way (need large ATATs to take on small damage creators, need sheilds to keep planet safe from star ships, need small troops to raid bases to take out sheilds, need mobile speeders to take on large ATATs…). This was, perhaps, the lazy way, though, also the more understandable way to represent the struggle for Hoth.

As an aside, I again think that we have this mechanic as a result of the game going from a cooperative LCG to a competetive. The linear mechanic seems to be present in LotR LCG and I believe this had a similar design…

Thanks for listening. I really wanted to enjoy Star Wars LCG, but it just feels flat (or as flat as a line).



#11 dbmeboy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:54 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about future designs always being linear. If it helps, the linear nature of the "Hoth matters" cards probably means that a Hoth themed deck will probably remain playable as turning on the effects will get easier as the meta drifts towards other themes.

#12 vermillian

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:10 AM

And seem just as lazy, if not more, then as well.

I just don't like being pushed into this game with the first mechanical interaction is the simplest one. The only cure for hoth is MORE HOTH! (it's like cowbells).

Netrunner didn't suffer from this in its first packs. Nor did Warhammer…



#13 Toqtamish

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:40 AM

Don't play a Hoth deck then. It's not like you have to. There is still plenty of non Hoth to use even with just the core set and first force pack. My Smugglers/Jedi deck has no Hoth, just core set stuff and Message from Beyond which is Dagobah.



#14 dbmeboy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:18 AM

Yeah, my point was that Hoth would still be usable (and they may still sprinkle Hoth cards in future sets) but that it wouldn't be the only option nor will it necessarily be unbeatable without also playing Hoth. Also, even with just the 2 packs released so far there's plenty of non-Hoth stuff to use.

#15 cooleo1c

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

Stop whinning vermillian triste



#16 romo

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:58 AM

vermillian said:

A) I bought the first pack of Hoth cycle. I got 4 objective sets of cards I couldn't use effectively ON THEIR OWN (that is, with those and the core set). Imagine if I put just those Hoth objective sets into my deck: 2/10 chance (well a touch more) of them synergizing… not great. Making only a few of the objectives in the pack worthwhile.

 

So you think 4/6 objectives in the first pack were useless?  Which 4?  If you look at Sith deck lists from the regionals, a large number of them used the hoth objectives from the first pack, and they proved to synergize really well with the core set. I don't agree with your assessment that splashing a few hoth objectives in a mostly non hoth deck is useless. 



#17 Hida77

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:31 AM

The amount of analysis done that resulted in this thread seems lazy if you ask me…

The Hoth sets work together well, but also work independantly.  Thats called "good design" by the way.  The theme is supported, but also very capable of being used without the theme or only as a sub-theme.

Honestly, I think that FFG has done an outstanding job of balancing a vast majority of the objectives such that it is almost possible to arbitrarily pick Objectives and have a functional deck to some degree.


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#18 The Gas

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

romo said:

vermillian said:

 

A) I bought the first pack of Hoth cycle. I got 4 objective sets of cards I couldn't use effectively ON THEIR OWN (that is, with those and the core set). Imagine if I put just those Hoth objective sets into my deck: 2/10 chance (well a touch more) of them synergizing… not great. Making only a few of the objectives in the pack worthwhile.
 

 

 

So you think 4/6 objectives in the first pack were useless?  Which 4?  If you look at Sith deck lists from the regionals, a large number of them used the hoth objectives from the first pack, and they proved to synergize really well with the core set. I don't agree with your assessment that splashing a few hoth objectives in a mostly non hoth deck is useless. 

Yeah.  The Wedge pod is great even with no other Hoth stuff (but of course gets even better with it), Obi-Wan's Spirit is an auto-include in any Jedi deck, and as you said the Sith and dark neutral pods are very popular in Sith control decks.  The only pod in the pack that NEEDS more Hoth to be useful is the light neutral.



#19 vermillian

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:36 PM

Well, if it means anything to ya all, I also don't like that M14 is bringing back Slivers either so… 

Just goes to show I don't like what I perceive to be lazy deck building design… and that when I buy a pack of M14 (or a force pack in Star Wars LCG) that the pods I get will feel… under par? I mean, why put a LITTLE cowbell in a song when MORE cowbell is better?

BUT as youv'e said, and I've seen, it appears that, for now (though we're only 2-3 packs in) a little hoth is just as good THOUGH… how much Hoth do we really HAVE?

If you are restricted on how much cowbell can be done, the solution for more cowbell is not an option, but when it is…

Here's to hoping Nate and company have done their jobs well!



#20 Magni

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

I like that as the Card pool expands HOW yo play is almost as important as WHAT you play.  Its become a big selling point for me in pitching the game to friends.


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