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Edge of the Empire and X-Wing Miniatures


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#1 Farsox

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:14 AM

I have searched the Edge of the Empire forums and the X-Wing forums, and I haven't seen anything about this yet.  I am a little surprised, as I thought (with both games being published by FFG) that this would be a more common topic of discussion:

Has anyone thought of incorporating the X-Wing ruleset into an Edge of the Empire campaign? I know that the stats would have to be tweaked to keep the players from being killed too easily, and it might be difficult to translate certain piloting abilities from EotE to X-Wing,  but I'm curious if anyone else has put any thought into this.  I have a decent collection of X-Wing miniatures, and absolutely love the rule system for it.  I thought it might be cool to run sort of a rogue squadron type of campaign at some point (which is probably more appropriate for the "Age of Rebellion" rulebook).

It seems like it could be cool to merge the two systems for a campaign like that.  Any ideas on how that might work?


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#2 korjik

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM

I've thought of it, but havent gotten any farther than: 'If I thought of it, why hasnt anyone at FFG thought of it and designed the games from the ground up to be compatable?'



#3 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

Well, you've got your work cut out for you, since these games use entirely different mechanics.

You'd also need to consider which EotE talents would be useful in X-Wing, and how they'd convert over to the minis game.  To say nothing of their Characteristic (mostly Agility, though Cunning and Intellect shouldn't be overlooked) and Skill ratings, namely Pilot (Space) and Gunnery, but also Computers (to operate sensors), Perception (when using the ol' Eyeball Mark 1) as well as Cool and Vigilance for initiative purposes.

I believe the minis game also has a restriction on the number of 'special abilities' you can purchase for an individual ship, but a PC that's custom-built to be a pilot is going to have more than a single 'special ability,' particularly as the game progresses and the PCs gain experience.


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#4 Farsox

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

I suppose I'll just have to toy around with it a bit.  I think I will have to get a little more comfortable with both systems before I really try to come up with anything.  It will probably take me some time, but when I have some ideas, I'll be sure to share them


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#5 LethalDose

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:23 PM

Farsox said:

I suppose I'll just have to toy around with it a bit.  I think I will have to get a little more comfortable with both systems before I really try to come up with anything.  It will probably take me some time, but when I have some ideas, I'll be sure to share them

I expect that when you're comfortable with both, you'll simply use the minis for markers when you're playing EotE.  I think DM hit the nail on the head: They're diffrent games with different systems with different purposes (EotE is narrative, X-Wing is tactical).  

-WJL



#6 Daeglan

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

Not that hard from what I have looked at.

You just use X-wing in place of star ship combat. X-wing is more deadly. But that can be worked around.



#7 Kallabecca

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:51 PM

Daeglan said:

Not that hard from what I have looked at.

You just use X-wing in place of star ship combat. X-wing is more deadly. But that can be worked around.

Right… and you convert the characters over how? that was the whole point of the initial response… So, not as simple as you think.



#8 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:55 AM

Daeglan said:

Not that hard from what I have looked at.

Well, only if you want to completely ignore the Characteristics, Skill, and Talents that your pilot-based PCs have paid good XP for and force them to build their fighter pilots using X-Wing's point system, to say nothing of X-Wing being far more lethal to the pilots than EotE.

Farsox,

This link might be of interest to you, as Durian Keldrona asked a similar idea, though he did get a bit snippy given a lot of folks (self included) thought it wasn't a great idea; as I noted, he probably could have worded his initial post far better in terms of what he was after.

http://www.d20radio....p?f=149&t=11940


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#9 Farsox

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:11 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Daeglan said:

 

Not that hard from what I have looked at.
 

 

Well, only if you want to completely ignore the Characteristics, Skill, and Talents that your pilot-based PCs have paid good XP for and force them to build their fighter pilots using X-Wing's point system, to say nothing of X-Wing being far more lethal to the pilots than EotE.

Farsox,

This link might be of interest to you, as Durian Keldrona asked a similar idea, though he did get a bit snippy given a lot of folks (self included) thought it wasn't a great idea; as I noted, he probably could have worded his initial post far better in terms of what he was after.

http://www.d20radio....p?f=149&t=11940

Thanks for the link.  After reading a couple of the posts, I realized that it might be a good idea to clarify what I'm going for.  My intent is not to permanently alter my EotE sessions with X-Wing style space combat, but instead to create a roleplaying campaign for the X-Wing game.  It would likely be a one-off campaign of characters attempting to survive a series of missions with a bit story between.

I have a couple of thoughts about how this could be feasible, but want to do some testing before I put it before the public.


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#10 LethalDose

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:36 AM

Farsox said:

Thanks for the link.  After reading a couple of the posts, I realized that it might be a good idea to clarify what I'm going for.  My intent is not to permanently alter my EotE sessions with X-Wing style space combat, but instead to create a roleplaying campaign for the X-Wing game.  It would likely be a one-off campaign of characters attempting to survive a series of missions with a bit story between.

I have a couple of thoughts about how this could be feasible, but want to do some testing before I put it before the public.

So, basically you're looking for character/pilot creation and advancement rules for the X-wing game?

-WJL



#11 Farsox

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:51 AM

LethalDose said:

Farsox said:

 

Thanks for the link.  After reading a couple of the posts, I realized that it might be a good idea to clarify what I'm going for.  My intent is not to permanently alter my EotE sessions with X-Wing style space combat, but instead to create a roleplaying campaign for the X-Wing game.  It would likely be a one-off campaign of characters attempting to survive a series of missions with a bit story between.

I have a couple of thoughts about how this could be feasible, but want to do some testing before I put it before the public.

 

 

So, basically you're looking for character/pilot creation and advancement rules for the X-wing game?

-WJL

That's basically the idea but with a little more depth, so that a mission could require them to land on a planet surface and utilize much of the EotE rules to peform a rescue, infiltration, or even just to attempt to refuel and gather supplies (which may or may not get the characters into more trouble than they had hoped for).


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#12 LethalDose

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

Farsox said:

That's basically the idea but with a little more depth, so that a mission could require them to land on a planet surface and utilize much of the EotE rules to peform a rescue, infiltration, or even just to attempt to refuel and gather supplies (which may or may not get the characters into more trouble than they had hoped for).

Thats about what I'd expect.  You're basically describing two separate game systems that are narratively linked.  And I think it's important to treat them in just that way, separate.  

Use the EotE system when they're out of the cockpit dirtside, and their characters can advance in the EotE system normally.  No changes needed.

THEN, separately, when they are in the cockpit, they basically have totally separate character sheets (some X-wing mini card mockup).  Give everyone a pool of points to start with, and they can create their characters for the Xwing game.  I'd recommend you search through the X-Wing forums to get ability point values.  There was a poster (can't remember his name) that applied a linear regresssion to the point costs of the X-wing units and abilities to calculate the relative value of each attrib/ability.  You can use that information as guidelines for ability point cost.

 

Now, this is the important part:

 

Are you listening?

 

Seriously.

 

You have to keep the X-Wing XP and the EotE XP COMPLETELY SEPARATE!!!

 

The players cannot spend X-Wing XP to improve their character stats, and they cannot spend the EotE XP to improve their pilot stats.  There's no way to balance those.  Keeping these pools separate keeps all the players on an even  keel in both arenas, and will vastly simplify your life.  You can award both kinds of points for a session or encounter, but they should never get to choose one of the other.  For example, after a skirmish, they can get 5 EotE XP (which can ONLY be spent to improve the EotE character), and 2 Pilot XP (which can ONLY be spent to improve their Pilot/x-wing stats).  Each type of XP is kept/tracked in a totally separate pool.

Now, does this make EotE skills like Gunnery, Pilot, and Mechanics useless?  No.  They'll still be used groundside, and in narrative events in space.  Since they're getting EotE XP to spend on their EotE, they won't be wasting the points in these skills, since they'll still be used in various ways.

Also, since the base ship type of the X-Wing minis was included in the regression calculations, you may want to consider letting the players upgrade ships with XP points.

Anyway, thats my advice/how I'd swing it.  Hope that helps.

-WJL



#13 ErikB

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:05 AM

Daeglan said:

X-wing is more deadly. But that can be worked around.

 

 

 

If you look at 'campaign' systems for wargames intended to link a series of battles together in to some kind of meta narrative, they will usually assume that being defeated on the tabletop doesn't mean the death of the character.

For instance, in the Strange Aeons cthulhu mythos skirmish game, if a model is taken out, after the game you roll a D66 on this table, subtracting 1 from the first dice if the model isn't a hero/pc/named character.

 

D66 Results
11-15 Dead (remove from sheet and re-equip if needed)
16-21 Multiple Injuries (roll D3 times on this table, rerolling any further Multiple Injuries
results)
22 Leg Wound (-1 Movement)
23 Arm Wound (+1 Dexterity)
24 Agoraphobia (Fear of open spaces. If not within 1” of a terrain feature upon Nomination,
the model may only Move)
25 Crippled (only 1 Action per turn)
26 Chest Wound (-1 Constitution)
31 Teratophobia (Fear of monsters. All enemy models are Hideous and cause Fear)
32 Poor Health (Before first turn roll D6. On a 1 model unable to take part in this game)
33 Ballistophobia (Fear of bullets. Model must pass a Resolve test to use Ranged weapons)
34 Head Trauma (+1 Resolve)
35 Claustrophobia (Model must pass a Resolve test to enter scenery. If failed roll -2 on
the Insanity Table)
36 Amnesia (lose 1 Skill)
41 Acrophobia (Fear of heights. Model must pass a Resolve test to climb any scenery over
2” above the tabletop. If failed roll –2 on the Insanity Table)
42 Weakened (-1 Attacks)
43 Haphephobia (Fear of being touched. Must make a Resolve test in base-to-base)
44-54 Full Recovery (No permanent effects today…lucky!)
55 Hemaphobia (Fear of Blood. Make a Resolve test if ANY model is removed from the
table due to injury within 5” and line of sight)
56-61 Hate (Model Hates the enemy model responsible for the Major Injury)
62 Hardened (The model no longer suffers the effects of Fear)
63 Horribly Disfigured (The model is now Hideous)
64-65 Basket Case (The model is immune to Psychology. No Resolve tests need be taken.
Spells may not be cast by this model)
66 Nemesis! (the model Hates the entire cult responsible for the Major Injury)
 
which means a major character is only permanently dead about 13% of the time, and an extra about 30% of the time. And that is probably pretty harsh as such things go.
 
So, you can probably assume that when a model is taken out of the game in X-Wing, it doesn't mean the pilot is killed, but rather that they ejected or launched an escape pod.
 
Or even, if you can sell it to the players, who tend to hate this sort of thing, that the defeated fighter has disengaged and bugged out or spun off in to space like Darth Vader at the end of Star Wars. For instance, I am playing a space combat game called Project Sylpheed at the moment, and when you do enough damage to an enemy ace, rather than them dying in the fireball it triggers a cutscene in which they make their escape. But players hate that, so ejecting might be easier, so long as you can convince them not to start trying to machine gun pilots as they descend to earth on a parachute.
 
 
 
 

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#14 New Zombie

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

i could see myself playing the 2 games as distinct games that inform each other. for example between sessions of a edge rpg game play a game of x-wing, where the results have an impact on the rpg - rebels win and the local imperial forces loses access to a communication relay.



#15 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

New Zombie said:

i could see myself playing the 2 games as distinct games that inform each other. for example between sessions of a edge rpg game play a game of x-wing, where the results have an impact on the rpg - rebels win and the local imperial forces loses access to a communication relay.

I think that's a great way to go. It wouldn't help for huge 'Battle of Endor' type battles, but as a 'fighter fix', it's a good way to go. :)



#16 Farsox

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:45 AM

LethalDose said:

Farsox said:

 

That's basically the idea but with a little more depth, so that a mission could require them to land on a planet surface and utilize much of the EotE rules to peform a rescue, infiltration, or even just to attempt to refuel and gather supplies (which may or may not get the characters into more trouble than they had hoped for).

 

 

Thats about what I'd expect.  You're basically describing two separate game systems that are narratively linked.  And I think it's important to treat them in just that way, separate.  

Use the EotE system when they're out of the cockpit dirtside, and their characters can advance in the EotE system normally.  No changes needed.

THEN, separately, when they are in the cockpit, they basically have totally separate character sheets (some X-wing mini card mockup).  Give everyone a pool of points to start with, and they can create their characters for the Xwing game.  I'd recommend you search through the X-Wing forums to get ability point values.  There was a poster (can't remember his name) that applied a linear regresssion to the point costs of the X-wing units and abilities to calculate the relative value of each attrib/ability.  You can use that information as guidelines for ability point cost.

 

Now, this is the important part:

 

Are you listening?

 

Seriously.

 

You have to keep the X-Wing XP and the EotE XP COMPLETELY SEPARATE!!!

 

The players cannot spend X-Wing XP to improve their character stats, and they cannot spend the EotE XP to improve their pilot stats.  There's no way to balance those.  Keeping these pools separate keeps all the players on an even  keel in both arenas, and will vastly simplify your life.  You can award both kinds of points for a session or encounter, but they should never get to choose one of the other.  For example, after a skirmish, they can get 5 EotE XP (which can ONLY be spent to improve the EotE character), and 2 Pilot XP (which can ONLY be spent to improve their Pilot/x-wing stats).  Each type of XP is kept/tracked in a totally separate pool.

Now, does this make EotE skills like Gunnery, Pilot, and Mechanics useless?  No.  They'll still be used groundside, and in narrative events in space.  Since they're getting EotE XP to spend on their EotE, they won't be wasting the points in these skills, since they'll still be used in various ways.

Also, since the base ship type of the X-Wing minis was included in the regression calculations, you may want to consider letting the players upgrade ships with XP points.

Anyway, thats my advice/how I'd swing it.  Hope that helps.

-WJL

I respect what you are saying here.  I really do.  But it's not the way that I envision it.  I plan to put a lot of work into this, and place a larger relationship between the two systems.  Yes, that means sharing XP between the two.  The reason for this is that I want the characters to be tempted to spend their XP on things that are not related to Piloting.  They will have to make character development decisions that will require forgoing one important skill to improve another.  I will put them through enough sessions that are not related to flying that it would be smart for them to invest in regular skills from EotE.  Also, I will overhaul the Pilot Specialization tree to contain skills and stat boosts that are specific to X-Wing (there may also be sub-skills to keep the benefits that are related to planetary piloting).

When ships would normally be destroyed in the X-Wing system, it will be assumed that the characters are able to eject from their ship.  They will roll on the critical hit table for ships in the EotE rulebook, as normal.  I know that this is going to take a lot of work, and will be really difficult to balance.  That is probably the main reason that I am drawn to attempt it.  If it fails miserably, I will probably laugh at myself, and try to learn from my mistakes.

I'm not ready to share too much more about what I've come up with so far, because it's still too early; however, I already like where it's headed.  I will share what I'm working on when it's a little more hashed out.


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#17 Keeop

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:18 AM

I've put some thought into this as well and tried to get a discussion going over on the G+ Community. I basically have withdrawn back to a simple idea like what New Zombie suggests. It's something I'll bust out a few times during the 2nd corebook but probably not something that's so distracting that I want to spend time reinventing the wheel over right now. And who knows, there could be additional ship rules or fleet battle ideas coming already that we don't know about. Most likely see where we are when the time comes, but initially yes… I wondered why these two games didn't have the opportunity for a lock somewhere along the line.



#18 LethalDose

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:42 PM

Farsox said:

LethalDose said:

[…] keep the X-Wing XP and the EotE XP COMPLETELY SEPARATE!!!

[…]

-WJL

 

 

I respect what you are saying here.  I really do.  But it's not the way that I envision it.  I plan to put a lot of work into this, and place a larger relationship between the two systems.  Yes, that means sharing XP between the two.  

Thats cool, man.  I've got no problem with how you develop and run your game.

It's your table, and that means it's your migraine. ;-)

If you get something that runs smooth, by all means, please share.  I'd love to see what you come up with and it would be awesome to be proven wrong about this.

-WJL



#19 Gallows

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:05 AM

I would just use the x-wing miniatures, the movement system, firing archs, range finder and other general components.

 

I'd still use the EotE space combat rules as written with some house rules to take advantage of the x-wing components.

 

I'd asign each maneuver template a difficulty, that will be modified by the ships current speed and handling. Some maneuver templates may even have requirements and minimum stats. Then players just make a check to see if they can perform the maneuver if need be. Maneuvers could even be combined to create even harder maneuvers. There should just be a limit on the distance moved when combining the templates.

 

I wouldn't use the movement dials at all, since players would just move on initiative. I would however split initiative slots into two. First everyone moves and makes actions related to movement - or all non combat actions actually. Then everyone would attack.

 



#20 ShadowStar

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:15 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

….Well, only if you want to completely ignore the Characteristics, Skill, and Talents that your pilot-based PCs have paid good XP for and force them to build their fighter pilots using X-Wing's point system….

 

Not sure that failing to account for piles of characters sheet stuff would be a problem in a story-strong system like Edge for a series of encounters that should amount to a simplified and infrequent subsystem in most games or campaigns.  In the d20 systems, players had so much trouble applying their normal stats to the vehicle and space systems that most players I knew completely ignored the vehicle and space rules to the point of not wanting to ever play any kind of vehicle or space encounter.  Any time I crafted a space challenge to try to get the pilot character or two some limelight while piloting in the past, the players immediately exploited the rules in a desperate attempt to simply outrun the bad guys.  They did this in spite of knowing that enemies could hyperspace in ahead of them, pop out from asteroids and intercept them, etc…  All they wanted to do was run, get off the ship, and get to the next encounter where they could draw lightsabers and blasters and/or roll skill dice all around on a battle grid instead of trying to learn the vehicle rules or how to apply their stats and abilities to vehicles, much to the disappointment of the one or two pilots in the group.

 

Hopefully any vehicle system within Edge is greatly simplified and does not overdo it with character traits being a major component of vehicle combat.  If so, then I know my casual players will just blow it off again as a subsystem that they won't want to learn.






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