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Accurate Basic Weapons vs. Vehicles


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#1 HappyDaze

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

I was just looking at a regiment built to favor long-range warfare and opted for the sniper rifle and autocannon weapon options. I then noticed that, on a good attack roll, the sniper rifle can do almost as much damage as the autocannon (3d10+4 Pen 3 vs 3d10+8 Pen 6) thanks to Accurate. I know that the extra 2d10 are not able to score Righteous Fury, but is it intentional that the sniper rifle can do so much damage to light vehicles?


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#2 MILLANDSON

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:52 AM

Well, some sniper rifles in real life are designed to be able to disable light armour and vehicles, so it does sort of fit that you can do that in the game too.


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#3 Kharol

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 03:27 AM

After running several sessions, I specifically prohibited Accurate Basic weapons from affecting vehicles.  From a fluff point of view it didn't make much sense to me anyway, and mechanically it was a nightmare.  With just basic equipment, our Ratling was already an always-hitting, always-killing, untouchable death machine, and now he could take over the Heavy Gunner's role as well?  Ridiculous.

 

If you're giving everyone the easy opportunity to get Accurate weapons, and you're disallowing or limiting Ratlings, it's probably okay to have them work against vehicles (as long as it makes sense to you in terms of fluff).



#4 KommissarK

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 03:54 AM

Whats funny is that in Hammer of the Emperor, there is a distinct intent to allow Accurate weapons to serve in an AT role:

-The Sharpshooter Advanced Specialization has the option of taking a missile launcher and krak missiles as standard kit
-The Sharpshooter has a comrade order that can give any weapon they're using the Accurate quality
-There is a talent that removes the "Basic" weapon restriction from Accurate weapons (barring the weapon having a very long list of qualities that would be broken in conjunction with Accurate, such as Storm).

I guess this falls outside whats being argued for here (sniper/accurate basic weapons being used in an AT role), but its all in a similar class.

I agree with Millandson on this though, there are certainly exapmples of sniper platforms being used in this role. Besides, while I haven't run the numbers myself, I certainly doubt this is posing a threat to the front armor of a LRBT.



#5 Musclewizard

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:01 AM

I always argued that an accurate weapon firing on vehicles targets weakpoints in the vehicle such as viewing slits, external fuel tanks and similiar stuff but really this situation only came up once at that wa with a Hellhound flame tank.



#6 Radwraith

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:35 AM

This idea comes straight from the tabletop "rending" rule which comes up with snipers. 



#7 HappyDaze

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

KommissarK said:

Whats funny is that in Hammer of the Emperor, there is a distinct intent to allow Accurate weapons to serve in an AT role:

-The Sharpshooter Advanced Specialization has the option of taking a missile launcher and krak missiles as standard kit
-The Sharpshooter has a comrade order that can give any weapon they're using the Accurate quality
-There is a talent that removes the "Basic" weapon restriction from Accurate weapons (barring the weapon having a very long list of qualities that would be broken in conjunction with Accurate, such as Storm).

I guess this falls outside whats being argued for here (sniper/accurate basic weapons being used in an AT role), but its all in a similar class.

I agree with Millandson on this though, there are certainly exapmples of sniper platforms being used in this role. Besides, while I haven't run the numbers myself, I certainly doubt this is posing a threat to the front armor of a LRBT.

On your list of Sharpshooter points, I'd like to note that the list of restrictions applies to the Sharpshooter Comrade Order, not to the Versatile Shooter Talent. Versatile Shooter with an Accurate Autocannon (a pattern with Incredibly Deadly could do it) could be great fun.

As for the examples of sniper rifles being used in the anti-materiel role, I guess I have less problem with it so long as the option to have Accurate Heavy Weapons with bonus damage exists (as described above).


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#8 KommissarK

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:54 AM

Yeah, I would of fixed that had this forum have a better edit button.

That said, I do feel that the Incredibaly Lethal pattern modification has to be applied with some caution. I feel the list of "invalid" weapon qualities listed with Pinpoint Guidance is useful to this end. I've seen the threads on how to handle Storm and Accurate at the same time, and it isn't pretty.



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:28 AM

KommissarK said:

Yeah, I would of fixed that had this forum have a better edit button.

That said, I do feel that the Incredibaly Lethal pattern modification has to be applied with some caution. I feel the list of "invalid" weapon qualities listed with Pinpoint Guidance is useful to this end. I've seen the threads on how to handle Storm and Accurate at the same time, and it isn't pretty.

I agree on Incredibly Deadly being abusable, particularly with Blast weapons. When a well-placed shot now has shrapnel that somehow finds evey ***** in the armour of every target in the area of effect thanks to Accurate + Aim + Versatile Shooter, there's a problem.


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#10 Darck Child

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:31 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Well, some sniper rifles in real life are designed to be able to disable light armour and vehicles, so it does sort of fit that you can do that in the game too.

 

I agree with this too.



#11 Crucol

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:18 AM

If you want to undermine the influence of your ratling, you can:

- ambush the group ie, they are in melee (then snipers are pointless)

- make the importance of the environment more pregnant, like the leaves of plants coming in front of his line of sight with the wind (damn leaves, they cost me 20 BS p255 weather and unnatural condition Core Rulebook)

- make their opponents throw smoke grenades to mask line of sight and take cover (-20 to BS p253 Core Rulebook)

- have a Ennemi sniper shooting at your group (will provide a good exercise of searching Wally for your ratling)

- have some wild animals disturb the ratling, like a boar family rampaging around and charging them or a predator attacking those who dare intrude on his own territory (after one or two events like this, the ratling will never stay away of the rest of the squad for too long, so he will be quite close of combat)

- if the Ennemi finds out approximately where your ratling is, he can order an aristrike from distant mortier or basilisks with vox. (you can then see how fast your ratling runs)

 

You don't have to bend the rules to make every situation a challenge.

If your group find a way of overkilling small troops wandering around, what will in your opinion be the ennemi reaction? They will engage a bataillon to seak and destroy, and then the hunter become the prey.

If they try to kill heavy armor with a sniper rifle from a great distance, good for them, because, in this very hot day, the sun is reflecting on the glass of the telescopic sight flashing their position. The gunner of the Leman Russ take aim with his battle cannon and vaporize the little insect, while thinking "Today, is a good day to die for the imperium scum!".

 

In my opinion, Snipers are good, but not godly, because in 40k, there is always something unsuspected coming up to kill you.

 

I hope my english is not too bad, if so, I'm sorry and beg your pardon.



#12 Tygre

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:29 PM

The GM should always (IMHO) take the environment into account.  If you are fighting in wide open plains why is the vehicle so close (distance adds range penalties), vehicles usually outrange most personal weapons.  I believe that the only time where there is consistently no penalties is on the shooting range.

 

I hope my english is not too bad, if so, I'm sorry and beg your pardon.

 

Not too bad.  I have seen worse English from English speakers.  By the way "Ennemi" is spelt "Enemy" and "bataillon" is spelt "Battalion".  Just trying to help :)



#13 Terraneaux

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:23 AM

.50 cal sniper rifles are used against vehicles all the time.  In fact, it's a war crime in some cases to use them against infantry irl.  



#14 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:55 AM

.50 cal sniper rifles are used against vehicles all the time.  In fact, it's a war crime in some cases to use them against infantry irl.

you're repeating an urban legend as fact, but it is not true

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#15 Emperor Castaigne

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 09:26 AM

is it intentional that the sniper rifle can do so much damage to light vehicles?

Considering that the Sharpshooter advanced specialty from Hammer of the Emperor has notes by some guy writing about how to take down Ork vehicles with just a Sniper Rifle, I'm going to assume that it is intentional.



#16 Terraneaux

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

 

.50 cal sniper rifles are used against vehicles all the time.  In fact, it's a war crime in some cases to use them against infantry irl.

you're repeating an urban legend as fact, but it is not true

 

 

Which part?



#17 Emperor Castaigne

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:11 PM

 

 

.50 cal sniper rifles are used against vehicles all the time.  In fact, it's a war crime in some cases to use them against infantry irl.

you're repeating an urban legend as fact, but it is not true

 

 

Which part?

 

Making a Google search for "50 cal sniper rifles war crime" gave me http://www.mca-marin...te/killing-myth as the second result.

 

"All three of the initial statements are wrong. No prohibition exists in the Geneva Conventions, any other law of war treaty, nor in any other part of the law of war on the use of weapons such as the 23mm ZU-23 or the .50 caliber machinegun as antipersonnel weapons."

 

So I'm assuming he's talking about the part about using .50 cal rifles against Infantry being a War Crime. The part about them being used against vehicles all the time is probably true.



#18 HappyDaze

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

That's correct. It is not a war crime IRL to use a .50 vs a human target.


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#19 HiveFleetStorm

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:53 AM

I was just looking at a regiment built to favor long-range warfare and opted for the sniper rifle and autocannon weapon options. I then noticed that, on a good attack roll, the sniper rifle can do almost as much damage as the autocannon (3d10+4 Pen 3 vs 3d10+8 Pen 6) thanks to Accurate. I know that the extra 2d10 are not able to score Righteous Fury, but is it intentional that the sniper rifle can do so much damage to light vehicles?

If your regiment is built for Long-range.  Look into a custom pattern weapon(HOTE). Make them all Incredibly Lethal and Recharge cycle to balance the weapons.  If there fighting a Cunning enemy theirs a good chance they will change tactics to

counter.      



#20 Face Eater

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:12 AM

Also, lets face it. You have scored an complete success with your sniper rifle, 4 additional degrees of success, and did nearly as much damage as the guy with the auto doing a glancing blow.

If you had made the same roll with with an Auto cannon you'd have got at least 1 additional shot to hit. Double damage right there. Might even have get 2 additional shots hitting. And a single auto cannon shot is not the be and end all of tank hunting it's rate of fire that makes the difference.






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