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Alliances and First Player quibbles


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#1 Old Ben

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:51 PM

Crimson Stag:

A few friends and I have been playing AGOT for about a month, using a mix of classic and current cards (none of us have any intention of playing tournaments, so no problems there). Due to the current lack of cards (poor students, meagre UK supplies etc) I've been playing a Lannister/Baratheon deck to make up the numbers in my deck. To make them a little more competitive I've been playing them as an Alliance (Gold penalty ignored, 20 power to claim). Do Alliances just remove the gold penalty, or do they also allow both Lannister Only and Baratheon Only cards to be used?

Secondly, once First Player has been decided in the Plot phase, do further changes to initiative (e.g. Bear and the Maiden) also change the First Player?

Thanks for any advice or rulings!


Staton_70:

First of all, if you can get a hold of a treaty card, you probably should. This lets you ignore the gold penalties of a chosen house, but you still have a house that you are playing. With the alliance card, it becomes your house card and you can't play House Only cards from either house. With the treaty, its the exact same thing, but you can play House Only cards from one of the houses. The Treaty Agenda card was printed in Valyrian Edition and Winter Edition.

Also, once first player is chosen, they are the first player for the remainder of the round, regardless of initiative changes.

Old Ben:

Welcome to the boards Crimson stag.

Crimson Stag wrote:
Do Alliances just remove the gold penalty, or do they also allow both Lannister Only and Baratheon Only cards to be used?



The agenda alliance doesn´t alow you to play any "house only events", there are cards in classic that allow specifically "alliance xy only". If you are playing the treaty agenda you are allowed to use "house only" cards from your main house.
There´s one rules exception in drafts, if you are using two houses you are allowed to play "house only" cards from both of your houses, this rule of course can be ceded if all your players agree.

Crimson Stag wrote:

Secondly, once First Player has been decided in the Plot phase, do further changes to initiative (e.g. Bear and the Maiden) also change the First Player?



The first player position will not be changed for the whole round.


Crimson Stag:

Okay, thanks! So the Alliance card doesn't work the way I thought it had... My opponents will be terribly pleased. Luckily I have some new cards on the way, so I should be able to play Lannisters or Baratheons with a 60-card deck. Although for the meantime, I'll see if they'll allow me to pretend I own a Treaty Card...


One more thing. When an effect is played in a particular phase, does it need to be done at the beginning of that phase, at the beginning of the controller's turn, or at any point in the phase? We're a little confused whether, for example, Cersei can kneel to prevent a character defending or attacking after her controller finishes his challenges but before the opponent declares attacks.



Ktom:


Crimson Stag wrote:
Okay, thanks! So the Alliance card doesn't work the way I thought it had... My opponents will be terribly pleased. Luckily I have some new cards on the way, so I should be able to play Lannisters or Baratheons with a 60-card deck. Although for the meantime, I'll see if they'll allow me to pretend I own a Treaty Card...

I'm a little confused here. There are 2 separate "play to 20, ignore gold penalty" type cards. One is an "Alliance" card, which is played instead of a House card. They are pre-printed with the allowable Houses and, since you do not actually have a "Lannister" or "Baratheon" House card, you actually cannot play "House X only" cards from EITHER of the two Houses. There is also a "Treaty" Agenda card, which gets attached to a particular House card and allows you to name any other House to ignore gold penalties from. Since, in that case, you are playing with a House card for one House, you can play "House X only" cards from THAT House, but not from the one you name for the Agenda.

The part that confuses me is that there was never a "Lannister/Baratheon" Alliance card printed. Only "Lannister/Greyjoy" and "Lannister/Targaryen." So I'm not sure which of the "play to 20, ignore gold penalty" methods you are currently using.

Crimson Stag wrote:
One more thing. When an effect is played in a particular phase, does it need to be done at the beginning of that phase, at the beginning of the controller's turn, or at any point in the phase? We're a little confused whether, for example, Cersei can kneel to prevent a character defending or attacking after her controller finishes his challenges but before the opponent declares attacks.

Whenever a player can take an action in a particular phase, the effects for that phase could be used. So it's not like you have to play ALL "Challenges" or ALL "Marshalling" effects at the beginning of the phase. You can wait for things to happen before using them. For example, there are 4 distinct places you can use "Challenges" actions in the flow of the game:

1. Before a challenge is initiated.
2. After the attackers are declared, but before stealth is assigned/defenders are declared.
3. After defenders are declared but before the challenge resolves.
4. After the challenge resolves.

So you can see, if you have a "Challenges" action that increases a character's STR, it could matter a great deal if you used it in spot #1 instead of in spot #3.

The places where players take turns using specific phase (or "Any Phase") effects in each phase are as follows:

Plot:
1. Before plots are revealed.
2. After all plots have been resolved

Draw:
1. Before cards are drawn.
2. After all players have drawn their cards.

Marshalling:
1. After each player counts their income.
NOTE: Technically, paying gold to play a card from your hand is a "Marshalling" phase effect. The second player does not count their income until after the First Player says that they have no other cards to marshal in this way. The First Player can still play OTHER "Marshaling" phase effects (that do not cost gold) during the second player's turn at marshaling cards from their hand.

Challenges:
See above.

Dominance:
1. After dominace power is awarded.

Standing:
1. After all cards have been stood

Hope that makes some sense....



staton_70:

Oh yeah. I totally forgot about Lanni/Barathone not being an alliance. Although seriously, that probably would've been way more Nedly than LanniJoy! When have the Lannisters and Greyjoy EVER worked together?! And Lanni/Targ?! WTF?! Tywin HATED the Mad King! And even if that wasn't all targareyns, they certainly never helped them! Poor show FFG. Poor Show



Crimson stag:


Yes, there is no Baratheon/Lannister Alliance card. As I said, though, we're playing with a limited card base, so until we have enough to play either a full Lannister or Baratheon deck, we've been appropriating the wording from the Greyjoy/Baratheon card. And still getting it wrong, but still.

ktom, thanks for the breakdown of the phases. The rules are mostly simple enough, but there are some situations where it's not obvious.


Ktom:


staton_70 wrote:
And Lanni/Targ?! WTF?! Tywin HATED the Mad King! And even if that wasn't all targareyns, they certainly never helped them! Poor show FFG. Poor Show

~ Twenty years as Areys's hand and grand plans/desires to unite the Houses by marrying Cersei to Rhaegar. Yep. Tywin ALWAYS hated the Mad King and NEVER worked with or helped the Targs!



staton_70:

~Well yeah, when you put it THAT way! But seriously, Tywin had to resent the Mad King even when he was still helping him. And let's not even get started about The Kingslayer! ~Alhough I guess he technically gave up all house affliations when joining the Kingsguard.



Mauve Butterfly:


Alliance does have one slight edge over Treaty though.

An Alliance allows you to ignore ALL gold penalties when playing cards from both houses, whereas a Treaty only lets you ignore the OUT OF HOUSE gold penalty on ONLY your secondary house.

So if a plot like Wildling Siege was revealed (+2 gold penalty on all characters and attachments) an Alliance would ignore this penalty, except for neutral cards and cards from another house outside the two on the Alliance.
 






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