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Hull trauma, personal scale weapons and landspeeder/speederbike


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#1 Ceodryn

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:10 AM

Hi,

I am curious how GMs run chase/combat when it is personal scale weapons & landspeeder/speederbike? The speederbike laser are actually personal scale weapons as well.

  • Is hull trauma equivalent to 10x its value for those two vehicles against personal scale weapons?
  • Or Is it assumed you are firing onto the pilot & passengers which are not protected? (although would they have cover?)
  • Are you using the maneuver and actions of Starship combat?

Thanks in advance

Cheers

Ceodryn

 



#2 Leechman

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:38 AM

Chases are best done as opposed checks with the relevant skill (Pilot, Athletics etc).  Determine the starting range bands of the parties to the chase.  If the pursuer wins, they close a range band and vice versa.

I don't recall if there is any specific rule regarding shooting at vehicles with personal weapons (pistols etc).  But treating hull trauma as x10 against these weapons is probably a good method, although I might let triumph hit one of the vehicle's critical systems.  Also need to remember if there is shielding to take into account.  However, if its a speeder weapon shooting at another speeder, I'd probably treat it as damage as written.

Firing weapons in a speeder chase, I guess the best thing to do is ask the PC what they're targeting, and what they're shooting with.  They could shoot at the opposing driver etc or they might call a shot at the engines and try to disable or slow them down by shooting ahead of them into terrain, trying to knock something down.  Think of it like the speeder chase scene from RotJ.  And don't forget to add setback die :P



#3 Kallabecca

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:53 AM

Actually it goes the other way. The damage of personal scale weapons is divided by 10. This is because damage of 11 against a vehicle with Armor 1 won't ever do any damage to the vehicle (11/10 -> 1.1 -> 1). Same thing with 19 damage (19/10-> 1.9 -> 1). If you went the way you described, then some might think that a 10 Hull, 1 Armor ship should be treated as having 100 Hull, 10 Armor vs personal scale weapon and think that 11 damage means that the vehicle takes 1 after soak (provided the armor was all the soak it has), reducing it to 99 Hull…



#4 Leechman

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

Either way the damage is mostly negligible anyway. 

Unless it serves a cinematic purpose :P



#5 Ceodryn

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 12:36 AM

Well, no the damage is not negligible when it's a speederbike or landspeeder. According to Kallabecca, 10+ damage would be 1 hull trauma. Ona  landspeeder, which has a treshold of 4, and with a few stormtrooper minions firing separately, it means a chance to get the landspeeder down by round 2 or 3. 

I just used that in a Roll20 Escape from Mos Shuuta, and it worked great.

Thanks for the answers!



#6 M00t

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 06:57 PM

Interestingly, a speederbike could not take out another speederbike since it has personal scale weapons and vehicle hull points. This particular vehicle is a problem! So, you could take advantage or triumph to hit the driver. This could work for both on foot and vehicle shots.

Or, I was thinking of on foot shots taking speed into consideration. Each speed increase is equal to difficulty and pilot skill as upgrades. Our team is really struggling with this particular vehicle. Personal scale cannot take the out, so on foot are screwed without a chance to hit the rider. Another speederbike cannot take them out since they also have personal scale weapons.

The Rebels just need to outfit all Troopers with bikes to take out the pesky Rebels!

M00t

#7 Agatheron

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 07:28 PM

I've posted this elsewhere, but keep in mind, even if a weapon cannot do hull trauma to a vehicle, it CAN inflict a critical hit as long as at least 1 success gets past the armour, and enough advantage or triumph is generated.


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#8 Ghostofman

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:02 PM

Interestingly, a speederbike could not take out another speederbike since it has personal scale weapons and vehicle hull points. This particular vehicle is a problem! So, you could take advantage or triumph to hit the driver. This could work for both on foot and vehicle shots.

Or, I was thinking of on foot shots taking speed into consideration. Each speed increase is equal to difficulty and pilot skill as upgrades. Our team is really struggling with this particular vehicle. Personal scale cannot take the out, so on foot are screwed without a chance to hit the rider. Another speederbike cannot take them out since they also have personal scale weapons.

The Rebels just need to outfit all Troopers with bikes to take out the pesky Rebels!

M00t


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#9 Krieger22

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:03 AM

On a somewhat related topic, how do people treat situations where players wish to target the driver of a vehicle, like a speeder bike? I've been considering making it the same as targeting an equipped item (one manoeuvre's worth of aming give two setback dice, two manoueuvres' worth gives one setback dice). Obviously this would only be an issue in open vehicles, not ones where the driver/passengers are enclosed in a cabin. Also, should the targeted driver receive some cover from the vehicle?


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#10 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:44 AM

On a somewhat related topic, how do people treat situations where players wish to target the driver of a vehicle, like a speeder bike? I've been considering making it the same as targeting an equipped item (one manoeuvre's worth of aming give two setback dice, two manoueuvres' worth gives one setback dice). Obviously this would only be an issue in open vehicles, not ones where the driver/passengers are enclosed in a cabin. Also, should the targeted driver receive some cover from the vehicle?

Given that we see Leia do just that (shooting the scout trooper on the speeder bike), I'd say your solution is as good as any.  And it makes sense, both in terms of how hard it'd be to hit a moving target and for the target to be exposed enough for the shot to be possible in the first place.


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#11 M00t

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:24 PM

Sorry if my post did not sound serious, but ... Yes! Open vehicles like bike and speeders do not seem to be directly accounted for in the rules. Targeting an equipped item or using the rules for an engaged target (I think this is suggested in another thread) are possible options. Does speed come into play? It seems that it should. So, speed difference of 2-3 is difficult, say, and maybe 4-6 is formidable. Thus, engaged target upgrades once and speed difference sets the difficulty. Just noodling the ideas. Air or land speeder battles from the occupants and speederbike combat just seem out of the ordinary.

#12 Inquisitor Tremayne

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:30 AM

Personally, I would avoid any hard and fast rules for such instances and just wing-it as the situation arises.  For instance, I think scene with Leia and her speeder bike chase would be a great time for upgrades to the difficulty as well as setbacks, etc.

 

If shooting a speeder bike with a blaster or 2 speeder bikes shooting at each other does little damage then what is really scary is Luke chopping the front end off the speeder bike with a lightsaber!  Yikes!  That is either hella damage or one big ole crit and triumph!



#13 Ghostofman

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:10 AM

Sorry if my post did not sound serious, but ... Yes!

 

Ok, if you're serious...

 

Interestingly, a speederbike could not take out another speederbike since it has personal scale weapons and vehicle hull points.
 

Personal scale weapons need to score 10 points of damage to inflict 1 point of Hull Trauma.

 

Since a speederbike has no armor, and a VERY low Hull Trauma Threshold it's actually quite easy for personal scaled weapons (like blaster rifles and up) to knock out a speederbike in a few hits. Auto fire weapons can even one-shot if the roll is hot enough.

 

 

 Does speed come into play? It seems that it should.

That's exactly the sort of thinking the setback dice are for. Otherwise to-hit is determined as usual for the shooter.

 

 

So how to target a person in an open topped vehicle, the use of Triumphs, or the application of shooting equipped items as Krieger said, are the two simplest solutions. Though generally there's not going to be any huge advantage to targeting the rider over the bike.


Edited by Ghostofman, 17 March 2014 - 09:11 AM.

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#14 Split Light

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 12:56 PM

I'm not entirely happy with the whole scale thing.  Some speeders just aren't that sturdy, and the system doesn't take that into account.  If you are shooting at a standard civilian speeder with a heavy blaster, to my mind, it's going to blow the thing apart in a few shots.  To scale it down to current times, if you shoot a Honda Accord with an assault rifle, it's not going to fair well.

 

I use the 10 to 1 thing for military vehicles or things that are specifically armored, but your day to day speeder, not so much.  It hasn't come up yet in our game, but I'd probably also rule that a speeder bike is not 10 to 1.  One good shot on one of those steering fins and it's a goner.  Just look at the movies.  Those things crumple like tin cans.  They're the Tie Fighters of the ground fight.


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#15 2P51

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:33 PM

A speeder bike or civilian speeder probably would be toast in a few shots with a blaster.  They don't have armor so 10 points of damage does a point of Hit to one of them.  A military speeder bike has no armor either.  It's only got 2 Hits, so two shots that do at least 10 each and it is toast.  That's not terribly difficult with a heavy blaster pistol and is a forgone conclusion with rifles more or less.


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#16 Hygric

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

I agree with Ghostofman and 2P51.  Speeder bikes don't need heavy weapons to take each other out.  With a single success and 2 advantage (not that unreasonable in semi-skilled hands) the Aratech bike from the EotE CRB will take out another bike with it's light repeater.  It's only when vehicles get an armour rating that personal scale weapons begin to fail.  A heavy repeater is in with a chance to damage an armour rating 1 vehicle, and a missile tube or a thermal detonator can reliably damage an armour rating 2 vehicle, but beyond that good luck!

 

Here is a related question: with the light repeater mounted on the Aratech speeder bike, does it use ranged (heavy) to hit as the weapon description says, or gunnery as it is vehicle mounted?



#17 HappyDaze

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:52 PM

Here is a related question: with the light repeater mounted on the Aratech speeder bike, does it use ranged (heavy) to hit as the weapon description says, or gunnery as it is vehicle mounted?

It still uses Ranged (Heavy).


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#18 Hygric

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:08 AM

So the skill is set by the weapon, not the fact that it is mounted on a vehicle.  Cool.

 

Out of curiosity, is that your interpretation or RAW?  Not that I really care about following RAW like a slave, I much prefer to run with what feels right at the time.



#19 HappyDaze

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:14 AM

It's RAW. Look at the Perform a Combat Check with Vehicle Weapons action on page 234, paying particular attention to the line: "He selects what skill he will use to make the attack (usually the Gunnery skill, but some vehicles may have weapons on them requiring the Ranged (Heavy) skill instead)."


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#20 Hygric

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:15 AM

Can't believe I missed that.  Thanks mate. :)






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