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The Naval Enhancmenet, Cowed and Rhoynar Emissary


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#1 JCWamma

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:44 AM

Two Naval-based questions, one for Cowed and one for the Emissary.

 

With Cowed, does "be declared alone" mean it is the only character being declared at that moment in time, or that upon being declared it is the only attacker/defender (delete as applicable) in the challenge? My assumption would be the former, in which case this attachment would shut down the Naval Enhancement quite nicely, but I thought it was worth checking.

 

Rhoynar Emissary, on the other hand, I don't have a clue with. If you target a Naval character, would that character have to immediately be Naval'd in, as its controller's first player action? Would it have to be declared as a defender during declaration of defenders framework action? Does it not matter which, so long as it is in the challenge by the end of that framework window? Or does it not matter so long as it enters the challenge at some point? If the latter, when would it be discarded? Right before challenge resolution? Or would it be moribund through the resolution?

 

Thanks for any help that can be given!



#2 -Istaril

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:03 AM

JCWamma said:

 

Two Naval-based questions, one for Cowed and one for the Emissary.

 

With Cowed, does "be declared alone" mean it is the only character being declared at that moment in time, or that upon being declared it is the only attacker/defender (delete as applicable) in the challenge? My assumption would be the former, in which case this attachment would shut down the Naval Enhancement quite nicely, but I thought it was worth checking.

 

Rhoynar Emissary, on the other hand, I don't have a clue with. If you target a Naval character, would that character have to immediately be Naval'd in, as its controller's first player action? Would it have to be declared as a defender during declaration of defenders framework action? Does it not matter which, so long as it is in the challenge by the end of that framework window? Or does it not matter so long as it enters the challenge at some point? If the latter, when would it be discarded? Right before challenge resolution? Or would it be moribund through the resolution?

 

Thanks for any help that can be given!

 

 

 

My understanding is that Cowed prevents Naval declarations entirely.

Rhoynar Emissary is a mess. I have no idea how that timing works at all, although I'd guess the intention is for it to require declaration through a normal framework action and be discarded in passive resolution of either the declare attackers or declare defenders framework action. However, the use "declare as a participant" is convoluted (can Walder Frey be declared as a participant or only participate? was this just a wording to avoid "Attacker or defender"). 

What would make the most sense given naval enhancements would be to discard a character at the end of the challenge resolution framework if the character didn't particpiate, but I'm fairly certain that what it's checking is declaration as a participant and not participation (eg, you could pull the character back out with a fleet, presumably), which throws another wrench in everything. In short? I've no bloody idea.



#3 mdc273

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:35 AM

JCWamma said:

Two Naval-based questions, one for Cowed and one for the Emissary.

 

With Cowed, does "be declared alone" mean it is the only character being declared at that moment in time, or that upon being declared it is the only attacker/defender (delete as applicable) in the challenge? My assumption would be the former, in which case this attachment would shut down the Naval Enhancement quite nicely, but I thought it was worth checking.

 

Rhoynar Emissary, on the other hand, I don't have a clue with. If you target a Naval character, would that character have to immediately be Naval'd in, as its controller's first player action? Would it have to be declared as a defender during declaration of defenders framework action? Does it not matter which, so long as it is in the challenge by the end of that framework window? Or does it not matter so long as it enters the challenge at some point? If the latter, when would it be discarded? Right before challenge resolution? Or would it be moribund through the resolution?

 

Thanks for any help that can be given!

The releveant text from Emissary:

"If that character is not declared as a participant in the next challenge this phase for which it is eligble, discard it from play."

So this is an oddball one. What this does is create a lasting, passive effect. This passive effect can not officially resolve until the Framework Action for determining the winner of the challenge resolves. This is because a player action could resolve (like Naval) that declares a character as a participant in the challenge at any time up until step 3 of that Framework Action window. So in step 4 of the challenge resolution framework, if a character targetted by Rhoynar Emissary had not been declared as a participant in the challenge, it will be discarded. It will go Moribund immediately after the resolution of the passive effect the Emissary generated, in whatever order the First Player chooses the passives to be resolved.

Not simple, but I hope that makes it clear. This all assumes the text printed on the card is intended to function exactly as printed. I would recommend sending this in as an official question as it may not have been the designer's intent.



#4 JCWamma

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:21 AM

Just for the record, I sent in the question to Damon just to be safe, and got the following response:

"If a character with a naval enhancement on the appropriate icon is targeted by the Rhyonar Emissary it must be declared as a participant by the end of the framework declaration step."



#5 mdc273

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:31 AM

JCWamma said:

Just for the record, I sent in the question to Damon just to be safe, and got the following response:

"If a character with a naval enhancement on the appropriate icon is targeted by the Rhyonar Emissary it must be declared as a participant by the end of the framework declaration step."

Uhhh… okay… Confusing more rules…

If "declared as a participant" in this case means by the end of the framework, then that seems to change how cards like Cowed work

Cowed - "Attached character cannot be declared alone as an attacker or defender."

Hell, it would make Fishing Net ineffective on [Naval] characters (which is almost thematic, amusingly)

Fishing Net - "Attached character cannot be declared as an attacker or defender, and does not count its STR for dominance."

Since declared as X means in the framework, [Naval] characters should be able to be declared while Cowed as a player action. Didn't we just conclude the other way on this?



#6 Khudzlin

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

I read "by the end of the framework declaration step" as including the action phase between the declaration of attackers and the declaration of defenders (but not the one between the declaration of defenders and the resolution). Using the Naval Enhancement is declaring a character as an attacker/defender. Fishing Net will stop naval declaration as well as normal declaration (still thematic, you can't go far if your boat is caught in a big net). As for Cowed, I think we need a clarification about what "declared alone" means (a single character declared at the time or a character is declared and is alone in the challenge).



#7 mdc273

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:38 AM

Khudzlin said:

I read "by the end of the framework declaration step" as including the action phase between the declaration of attackers and the declaration of defenders (but not the one between the declaration of defenders and the resolution). Using the Naval Enhancement is declaring a character as an attacker/defender. Fishing Net will stop naval declaration as well as normal declaration (still thematic, you can't go far if your boat is caught in a big net). As for Cowed, I think we need a clarification about what "declared alone" means (a single character declared at the time or a character is declared and is alone in the challenge).

I've already hit my quota of 1 question asked/replied to for the week. So maybe I'll wait 'til next week?

Also, while reading it that way is fine, it would not be the literal interpetation. I'm cool with taking it to mean "before the Stealth/Declare Defenders Framework Action", but just want to make sure that it's clear that this is a non-literal interpretation.



#8 Bolzano

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:07 PM

I read "by the end of the framework declaration step" as including the action phase between the declaration of attackers and the declaration of defenders (but not the one between the declaration of defenders and the resolution). Using the Naval Enhancement is declaring a character as an attacker/defender. Fishing Net will stop naval declaration as well as normal declaration (still thematic, you can't go far if your boat is caught in a big net). As for Cowed, I think we need a clarification about what "declared alone" means (a single character declared at the time or a character is declared and is alone in the challenge).

 

I read it the same way as from http://www.cardgamed...s-issue-23-r603

 

that is, I think by not specifying "attackers declaration" nor "defenders declaration" Damon meant "the very first framework event for which the character is eligible to be declared."

 

In case the targeted character is on the attacker side, then he would be discarded by the end of the attackers declaration step.

In case the targeted character is on the defending side, then he would be discarded by the end of the defenders declaration step. And in the case of a Naval character, he could well be declared as an attacker and not be discarded.






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