Jump to content



Photo

Why don't orcs fall to Chaos in massive numbers.


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 zylosan

zylosan

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:16 AM

The Korne supplement in Black Crusade made a passing referrence to corrupted orcs. So my question is why does the whole race not fall to corruption? They live for war and use violence as their primary problem solving method.



#2 TheHeavenlyLily

TheHeavenlyLily

    Member

  • Members
  • 84 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:12 AM

It is the WAAAAAAGH that generally protects the race from corruption by Chaos. It is very rare for Orks to fall to Chaos since the Old Ones engineered them to be resistant to their greatest enemy.


  • Koma76 likes this

#3 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 901 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:59 AM

As long as dem orky boyz git ta poun' sumfink every once n' awhile dey'r 'appy. Dey dun realy worry 'bout stuff like dem other fancie pantsie boyz.



#4 Nikollo

Nikollo

    Member

  • Members
  • 32 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

Actually it has largely to do with how Warp Physics in relation to the Chaos Gods operates (This position is based heavily upon the Liber Chaotica). Be warned, this may be long.

First, we must understand that the Materium and the Immaterium are twin universes that were created at exactly the same moment. The two are permanently intertwined, such that they are the only universes the other can break into. This is probably why the Old Ones experimented so much with Warp-Tech, as the Warp was the only other universe they could interact with (I also believe that this might be an intentional means of keeping the writers from doing alternate-universe hopping, which will keep the setting from becoming any more convoluted than it already is).

Since the breach of the dimensional barrier, nearly all sentient beings have possessed a material-self and a warp-self (the connection between the two being the "soul"). The thoughts and actions of the material-self fill the Immaterium with psychic pollution, which shapes and reshapes whatever resides there. When someone dies, the most prominent aspects of their selves "crystalize" in the warp, and are whisked off on the eatherial winds. Unless, of course, your personality is strong enough to hold itself together, in which case you become a "spirit."

There is also another form of spirit: the mortal-made spirit. This occurs when mortals collectively construct an identity, and their psychic emanations produce a vacuum in the Warp that must be filled.

Spirits of both forms are transitory, unless they can somehow perpetuate themselves, either through sheer force of will, sorcery, or worship. In the lattermost case, the spirit becomes identified with a concept or multiple concepts, and its worship focusses these concepts. As more and more psychic emanations based on these ideas bleed into the warp, the stronger the spirit becomes, until they can interact with the material universe in a relatively consistent manner. When they are able to perpetuate their existence indefinitely by this interaction, they are then defined as "gods" (barring, of course, the C'Tan).

This then brings us to the Chaos Gods. They are "gods" in that they can perpetuate themselves indefinitely, but they were not ever an individual spirit: they were and are all spirits. This may be a little confusing, but bear with me. Each Chaos God is composed of parts of all gods, spirits, and mortal psychic pollution. Khorne is probably the simplest god to demonstrate this with.

Take the War God Ares. Supose there was a cult worshipping him. The psychic pollution that feeds Ares also feeds Khorne. Because Khorne is Ares. But this doesn't work the other way around. The worship of Khorne does not feed Ares. Therefore Ares is not Khorne. Why is this? Because Ares has the one-way barrier of Identity working in his favor. Ares is an Individual that is defined by War. Khorne is not actually defined by War.

But Khorne is the Lord of Battles, is he not? This is because War as a concept is confining. It is complex. It has clear parameters under its definition. Khorne is something bigger, something much simpler: Khorne is Conflict.

Being a much broader concept that can literally be applied in some way to anything means that Khorne is the lowest common denominator, the pit to which all psychic pollution eventually drips. The same applies to the other Chaos Gods: Tzeentch (Change), Slaanesh (Variability), and Nurgle (Impermanence). The Chaos Gods, as a result, are too massive to have sole identites.

The Chaos Gods are storms of psychic pollution surrounding base concepts. This structure is what lends them their chaotic nature, as they invariably contradict themselves due to their lack of solidity, and bleed into eachother constantly.

 

Which brings us back around to your original question: Why aren't there more Chaos-aligned Orks running around?

The answer is that the WAAAAAGH!!! is actually a very specific philosophical approach to warfare. It's a subcategory of War, further clarified as "How Orks do it." While that definition may seem vague, anyone familiar with how Orks go to war knows that it's actually perfectly on point. Orks war the way Oks do, and it is called WAAAAAGH!!!

While the Chaos Gods are impartial in how they are worshipped (except when parts of them decide they are, or remember they do), the Orks don't need them as patrons. The Orks already have two patrons, Gork and Mork. Gork and Mork are fed very specifically by the WAAAAAGH!!!, a form of psychic runoff that can only be produced by the Orks. The clearly defined manner of this psychic pollution largely prohibits the Orks from being properly functional followers of the Chaos Gods, especially when one considers that these psychic emanations are only of note when Orks are around other Orks, and in large numbers. Orks require the presence of other orks and the subsequent boost in WAAAAAGH!!! energies in order to maintain themselves (Xenology), so running off with some Chaos warband would not be in their best interest (nor would many consider it, as the preference for Ork company is encoded in their DNA).

However, the Chaos Gods have little reason to bother with trying to tempt Orks, as the Orks feed them anyways (even if at a reduced amount to that of followers). Whenever an Ork experiences rage (an unresolvable internal conflict) and attacks something (external conflict, or internal expressed outwardly), he feeds Khorne. Whenever Ork spores settle down and change the ecosystem, or Orks change the course of a culture by interacion with them, or they change a landscape with their plundering and carnage, they are feeding Tzeentch. Whenever they revel in the noise of their guns, or the smell of blood and gunpowder, or howl in pain or rage, or exhult in the glory of victory, the feed Slaanesh. And whenever they tear down a defensive structure, or break down an ecosystem, or litter the battlefield with the dead and their derelict vehicles, they are feeding Nurgle.

The point here is that while they are ostensibly prohibited from serving Chaos, they feed it nonetheless. And the same applies to every race (save the Necrons, except indirectly through the other races).


  • pearldrum1 likes this

#5 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 901 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

Wordy indeed. Unfortunately I'm fairly certain your interpretation is not entirely appropriate to the setting. The utter simplicity of it and limited diminsionality for one. Whelp, not going to get into an argument about plastic dudesmen religion.



#6 Nikollo

Nikollo

    Member

  • Members
  • 32 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

herichimo said:

Wordy indeed. Unfortunately I'm fairly certain your interpretation is not entirely appropriate to the setting. The utter simplicity of it and limited diminsionality for one. Whelp, not going to get into an argument about plastic dudesmen religion.

The core simplicity of the Chaos Gods allows for a completely infinite number of variations on their worship and expression.

This explanation probably seems too simplistic because it is only a part of a greater model of Warp Physics, and I only brought up the parts that were relevant to the question. I could expand further on the subject of the structure of the daemon, Warp para-chronology, and the general functions of sorcery, as well as supporting texts, but this is neither the time nor the place.



#7 zylosan

zylosan

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:05 AM

Thank you nikollo for the effort and the explanation. While all might not agree with it at least its internally consistant and provides a framework for understaning. Feel free to expand on the general naturel of the warp and other things you mentioned, or even better post or send me a link to what you have already posted. 

But sense we are exponding on the general nature of Warp Psysics, a couple of other questions I have in no particular order. 

Tyranid:

Can they fall to chaos? If not, why not.

Not related but does the Hive Mind have access to prognositcation aspects of the warp?  They clearly have psychers but they are generally described as channeling the psychic power of the Hive Mind it's self. Which leads to what aspects of the warp does the Hive Mind have access to.

Tau: 

Are they all blanks or what? And if they are, how come they dont have a problem with their minon races falling to chaos? They have subjecated many lesser races and it seems hard to believe that they are "all" psychicly dead races. Oh and they include humans in their empire which leads to the question of why no demonic incursions with out a psycher purges.

I have mostly seen Tau portrayed as having no idea about the true nature of the warp and its horrors. How much do they know about it? Are they surprised by Imperial Battle Psychers?

 



#8 Hrathen

Hrathen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,497 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:53 AM

I am not sure if this explination is the official explination, but it makes sense to me.

Orks: The Chaos doesn't really have anything to temp Orks with, and maybe more so, orks don't have much that they can give up as they fall to Chaos.  Orks pretty much serve the purposes of chaos as they are.  They don't have some major social order that the Chaos gods want to destroy. 

As for other races:

Tyranids: They are failry new to the galaxy.  Who knows what the effect of the warp would be on them in a milenium or two.  Who knows what the reach of the Chaos is in the Galaxy where they came from.  Also The Tyranids have a couple of other things that would keep them from falling to Chaos.  First most of them are basically just animals.  Animals can be tainted by chaos, but they don't become heritics.  Secondly I would imagine that the Shadow of the Warp might provide some protection from Chaos.  The Hive mind itself, could be considered somthing similar to a Warp god when you think about it.

Tau: They are not parriahs, they do have some presence, but it is much small than that of humans.  They don't have psychers.  They are much less suseptable to the warp.  But the Tau are a young race.  It could be imagined that in 20,000 years when the Eldar are gone, and Human's are the ancient dying race, that Tau might have evolved psychers and have all sorts of problems with the warp. (Just speculation of course)

Humans: I think it is significant to point out that the only race that falls to the warp in the way that humans do is humans. (at least as I have seen)  Yes, lots of other races have fallen to the harp, but we don't know if it looks the same as when human do.  The other major Warp sensitive race that has a lot to fear from falling to chaos is Eldar.  And their fall to chaos didn't look much like Horus's fall.  Dark Eldar are not Eldar who worship chaos.  In fact I don't know of any Eldar who do worship chaos (unless you considere the Eldar gods to the alter-egos for the Chaos gods).  In fact I have never heard of a cannonized Chaos worshiping Eldar.  If there were Eldar who sided with Chaos, you would think that the Eye of Terror would be full of them.


Putting an end to this distructive conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.

#9 zylosan

zylosan

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:38 AM

Ork:  As to haveing no social order. Chaos seems to corrupt everything it touches from plants to animals and sentient beings. Multiple races are mentioned through the varios supplements and fictions as being corrupted by the warp. Dark eldar do not worship the chaos gods but they are definently touched by its taint. Where the hell is the dark eldar planet? I thought it was in the eye of terror. But the impression I got was that most of the Eldar who where at the core of their civilization (the area that would become the eye terror) where destoryed during the eyes creation as massive amounts of warp energy exploded and consumed most everything.

If the warp is an alternate dimension that is paralle to the material one, it would seem to make sense that it extends to the limits of the univese rather than just covering our galaxy. 

Speaking of the eldar extincition. Why the hell don't they use science or warp craft to boost their reporduciton rate? As they are highly proficent at both. 



#10 Hrathen

Hrathen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,497 posts

Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

zylosan said:

Ork:  As to haveing no social order. Chaos seems to corrupt everything it touches from plants to animals and sentient beings. Multiple races are mentioned through the varios supplements and fictions as being corrupted by the warp. Dark eldar do not worship the chaos gods but they are definently touched by its taint. Where the hell is the dark eldar planet? I thought it was in the eye of terror. But the impression I got was that most of the Eldar who where at the core of their civilization (the area that would become the eye terror) where destoryed during the eyes creation as massive amounts of warp energy exploded and consumed most everything.

If the warp is an alternate dimension that is paralle to the material one, it would seem to make sense that it extends to the limits of the univese rather than just covering our galaxy. 

Speaking of the eldar extincition. Why the hell don't they use science or warp craft to boost their reporduciton rate? As they are highly proficent at both. 

I agree that Orks can be tainted by Chaos, the way a plant, animal or even planet can.  But they can not give themselves over to chaos the way a Chaos Space Marine or Heratic has.  (At least imo)

 

The Dark Eldar Planet is in the Webway itself.  It was the only way the could maintain their decadent life styles and not be taken by Slaanesh.


Putting an end to this distructive conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.

#11 SomVone

SomVone

    Member

  • Members
  • 286 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

Because they do not fight for reasons the Chaos gods care about. The most obvious influence of the orks is Khorne. He has no power over them because orks do not fight for glory or the sake of bloodshed, orks fight because they were born to fight. It is simply their nature, and they don't even desire victory.

Slaanesh actually seems to have them ost hold over the orks, with their frequent attempts to make the loudest weapons and perfect armored vehicles. Not even mentioning the orks addictive personalities and love of exess velocity. There isn't really a good reason for orks to not fall to the Dark Prince. Still, it could be rationalized in that orks want these things for the sake of entering combat faster, or in new ways. This is a weak argument.

Nurgle has little to offer the orks. They have no fear of death and suffer little pain. Immortality or immunity mean nothing to them.

Then their is Tzeentch, the schemer. Orks rarely carry out complex plans, and their hopes and dreams are easy to fullfill, Tzeentch also has little to offer, because ultimately the orks are happy. In fact, their near complete contentedness with the current state of the galaxy is probably their greatest protection. The Ruinious Powers gain followers from the unhappy in one way or another. People who desire martial strength, influence, long life, and power. For orks, these things are only a single fight away from being in hand.



#12 Adeptus-B

Adeptus-B

    Part-Time Super Villian

  • Members
  • 1,902 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

Any thoughts on where the Ork gods Gork and Mork fit into the 40K cosmology? I've been toying with the idea that they are misinterpretations of the Chaos Gods- Mork, god of strength and resilience, is an amalgam of Khorne and Nurgle, while Mork, god of speed and cunning, is a hybrid of Slaanesh and Tzeentch- but that doesn't really mesh with the fluff: Orks being created by the anti-Chaos Old Ones, and in any event predating the 'birth' of Slaanesh. So, if Gork and Mork aren't Chaos, what the hell are they…?



#13 Vandroiy

Vandroiy

    Member

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

Gork & Mork are chaos gods, and given the orks are an engineered race their psychic emmissions are likely designed not to feed the other chaos gods. The Old Ones likely made it so they fed warp entities that weren't going to have a detrimental effect on them. Or alternately all orks have fallen to chaos, and dedicated themselves to Gork & Mork.



#14 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,153 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

I thought it was a matter of speculation whether Gork and Mork were even real?

Oddly, I think that Slaanesh is actually the Chaos god that would be most appealing to Orks, not Khorne. They fight for PLEASURE, not out of rage or hate, and while Orky society is stable is must contain a lot of ENVY as Orks constantly vie to be bigger and and better. "That loota's dakka is the best! If only I could get it!"

IIRC the standard explanation for why Orks don't fall to Chaos in anything like meaningful amounts is simply that they start acting un-Orky, which means that other Orks will kill them. The same reason genestealer cults don't thrive with them (Krauptman notwithstanding).



#15 Plushy

Plushy

    Member

  • Members
  • 811 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:51 PM

Dey'z got Gork n Mork! The spiky boyz ain't got nuffin for an Ork!


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#16 Face Eater

Face Eater

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,367 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:21 AM

From a pscyhological standpoint Gork and /or Mork provide all of the requirements for the Orks, probably more chaotic than the 4 chaos powers, at least according to their followers interperation.

However, I think the important physical effect is that combined psychic effect that all Orks get when they band together in numbers. This is the a real defence against corruption and you may even interperet it that Gork and Mork don't actually exist and it just that group psychic effect.

Of course that does leave small groups of Orks more vulnerable especially because groups of Freebootaz are hardly decerning with a potential employer who wants to pay them to cause trouble. 



#17 zylosan

zylosan

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:39 AM

Is it not kind of the nature of the warp that if enough people believe in a concept or idea that it is given form in the warp?  Which would kind of imply that even if Mork and Gork where not real in the first place, that some kind of warp entity would develop from the worship.



#18 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,153 posts

Posted 26 May 2013 - 12:37 PM

zylosan said:

Is it not kind of the nature of the warp that if enough people believe in a concept or idea that it is given form in the warp?  Which would kind of imply that even if Mork and Gork where not real in the first place, that some kind of warp entity would develop from the worship.

Or they could feed the four inadvertently.

Personally, I like to think of G and M as not being real (since they're never described as interacting with other warp entities in any way), although I realize given 40K's pseudometaphysics all the Orkish belief should have SOME effect.

Or… maybe the Ork psychic energy is 100% expended in the Materium, on the Waagh effect.



#19 Wonder Lemming

Wonder Lemming

    Member

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

Orks are a race with their behaviour hard-coded into their genes, this manifests both in the existence of oddboyz (Meks, Mad-doks, etc) but also their religeon. Orks worship Gork, Mork, both, or sometimes all three.

In essence this makes Gork and Mork a pair of unalighned chaos deities, of which there are many. Like their worshippers not all chaos beings and daemons are aligned to one of the four big names. There are a whole host of lesser sentiences, beings, ascended creatures and, for lack of a better word, gods than the four we always hear about, and Gork and Mork are just two of them. Whether G&M were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Orks themselves or they grew from the background racial psyk over time is a metter for the philosophers.

Can Orks follow other gods? Sure, but it's unusual and probably has an interesting reason beind it. The 40k universe is large and has as many interpretations as it has writers, in theory all of them can be true.

Except for anything written by C. S. Goto, which is only good for emergency loo paper and making compost.



#20 MorioMortis

MorioMortis

    Member

  • Members
  • 227 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:35 AM

I think the best way to think of Orks are as animalistic batteries; they are gene-coded to understand and be able to function in their basic, clan based society, while also having an instinctive capacity to use their technology and, in some cases, specific "mutations" that gives them additional genetic knowledge, giving us the Oddboys, and they all generate a certain amount of latent warp energy based on their level of activity (incidentally, this is similar to how power generation produces latent heat), which accumulates when they are in large numbers and can be siphoned off by Weirdboyz, and which ultimately bleeds off to the Warp, giving form to the Ork gods Gork and Mork, which cannot directly influence other races because the nature of the Ork warp deities is incompatible with that of more complex warp active races.  

They don't however have what could be though as a fully developed "soul", and so their emotions, which could be used to feed the other Chaos Gods (which themselves evolved from high concentrations of latent emotional tinted warp energy), are "weak", similarly to what you would get from drinking diluted beer (or hell, light beer) instead of the real stuff. Going back to their origin of the Orks (the Old Ones made them as a last-ditch attempt to beat back the Enslavers and the C'tan through sheer mass of bodies after the Eldar's relative failure to do so), it is logical that they would be engineered in a matter to limit their direct warp activity, as the OldCron C'tans fed on the warp energy present in conscious life forms, while then Enslavers can only enter the Materium through Warp active species (incidentally, Eldars, being extra warp active, are very tasty for C'tans and at greater risk of being possessed by Enslavers).

Fast forward a whole lot of time, and the Orks, now the pretty much the dominant life form in the galaxy, are still producing massive amounts of warp energy, but not a lot of quality emotions to feed the 4 chaos gods. This is why large WAAAAAGH's don't produce warp tears, but do tend to have an energizing influence on the Orks within. Furthermore, due to the simple minded nature of Orks, they are difficult to corrupt by the Chaos Gods; as SomVone said, they have little to offer them, it is difficult for daemonic entities to reach Orks behind the wall of warp energy surrounding them, and even if they could reach the Orks, they are too simple to understand the possible worth of what is offered to them. This is why when Weirdboyz are possessed by daemonic entities looking for a nice psyker snack, they become Warpheads which, although they tend to exhibit signs of schizophrenia and relatively more insanity than usual, aren't under the direct influence of the daemon, while the latter is effectively trapped within the body of a mad Ork. 

In early editions, the only large noticeable segment of Ork population which would “fall” to Chaos where some Stormboyz, which, in their rebellious youth phase, still though that discipline and drilling was not only for stupid humans and puny Eldars. This added psychological complexity and the presence of aspirations made them somewhat corruptible by Khorne, leading to a few Khornate Stormboyz, which sometimes remained in the Stormboyz corps permanently but usually became proper Orks after growing out of their rebellious ideas.

TL:DR Orks don't fall to Chaos because they have are simpleminded and have a limited warp presence but create a large amount of cheap warp energy, which makes them relatively poor sources of quality emotions and protects them from daemonic influence, while also making any offers Chaos can make unattractive.


  • pearldrum1 likes this

The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS