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Elusiveness question and Boost question


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#1 Darth_Malus

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

Elusiveness:

"When defending, you may receive 1 stress token to choose 1 attack die.  The attacker must reroll that die."

Rule Book, page 12, 'Modifying Dice Results' Section:

"…..a die that has already been rerolled cannot be rerolled again during this attack."

 

I'm pretty sure this is cut and dry.  But as it came up in our Sunday tournament, I figured I'd ask.

Does the 'cannot be rerolled again' statement preclude an opponent from using Elusiveness to force a reroll on a die that has already been rerolled by an attacker's ability?

 

Also, pre-measuring 'Boost' and 'Barrel Roll' actions was a point of contention.  A player measured for a 'boost left' action, saw that the final position of his ship was free and clear, and decided aginst boosting that direction.  The contention came when his opponent posed the following question:

"Since the measured 'Boost Left' action showed the final position of the ship would be clear of ships and obstacles, shouldn't the player now be commited to making that action?"

The rulebook (page 8 under Barrel Roll) states:

"The player may measure to see if his ship can perform a barrel roll before commiting to this action."

(We are assuming this also applies to Boost.)

Since the player was clearly measuring to see if he could get a better position on his opponent's ship (this was admitted by the player) and not to see if he would collide, is the 'pre-measure allowed, or is this abuse?

 

Thanks in advance.

 


 


#2 MerryVulture

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:43 PM

As for the first item, the rule book show the order in which dice are modified, and the defender modifies/causes rerolls before the attacker. So the attacker should not be rerolling until the defencedr has chosen to use elusivness or not.

 


Rebel: More than most, less than some.

Empire: Ditto

 


#3 KineticOperator

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:44 PM

There are no exceptions made or implied for the one reroll rule, so an evaded die cannot be rerolled.

Also, there are no restrictions for measuring anything other than the restriction against premeasuring while setting maneuver dials.  Since they require the ships action it also seems appropriate that the player can premeasure just like they would when taking any other action.  For example, a player can measure range to ships without obligating himself to Target Lock, regardless of whether or not they are in range.

The ability to premeasure is one of the major advantages of "action moves".



#4 Darkheart

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

Page 11, section 3 on Modifying Attack Dice.

"If the attacker and defender both have
abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender
resolves all of his abilities before the attacker."

Which when put with the sidebar on page 12 looks like elusiveness rerolls and locks in the attack dice.

"a die that has already been rerolled cannot be
rerolled again during this attack."

Even with Han Solo who allows you to "reroll as many of your dice as possible" that dice is still locked in it's result.

Now only the planning stage mentions the lack of pre measureing. So you should be allowed to measure, check and change your mind on an action during theactivation stage

"During the Planning phase, players cannot use
maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships
will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers
by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads."

 

But here is another queation on that. What is concidered "using" the templates?

Can a player pick up a template, eyeball it without putting it on the table, or measure it against their hand? Or do the templates have to be pretty much hidden away during that phase.

Also only the maneuver template is not allowed. So you can measure with the combat range ruler? by RAW ist looks like you can but I would think it defeats the intention of not premeasuring.

 



#5 KineticOperator

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

If the guy were holding the movement templates in his hand or had them sitting right beside the table while he kept looking at them for reference I would consider it legal, but pretty poor sportsmanship.  Same thing with measuring using the range template or some other device (I have heard people complain that a guy was using his hand at a tourney).

If I were the TO, I would warn them that regardless of how the rule was written it is pretty clearly not in the spirit of the rules to measure using alternative means.  Which I would consider a violation of another rule, namely that of demostrating poor sportsmanship.  One warning, then gone.



#6 ziggy2000

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

I don't consider having the movement templates sitting next to the table (and looking at them) poor sportsmanship at all - everyone I know of and play with usually has them all sitting next to the table for ease of use. What I would consider poor sportsmanship is picking them up, or using any other "proxy" measurement, such as a hand or portion thereof. Anything during the Planning phase that involves physical media (including the range ruler) and not "estimating their ships' movements in their heads" is poor sportsmanship in my book, and would be grounds for dispute in a tournament setting.

Elusiveness must be applied by the defender before any modifications are applied by the attacker, and could indeed be used to lock a die from subsequent rerolls via Han or Target Lock or whatever. You're gambling that the result you make him reroll will come up worse - if it does then OK, but if it's the same or better or a focus that can be changed (not rerolled), then your gamble didn't pay off.

 



#7 KineticOperator

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:23 AM

I think I gave the wrong impression.  I meant I would object if the guy was setting his templates right beside the playing area, moving them around / etc., basically doing everything short of actually putting the template on the playing area with his ship.  Most people have the templates sitting to the side, that's not what I meant.  :-)



#8 ziggy2000

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:04 AM

KineticOperator said:

I think I gave the wrong impression.  I meant I would object if the guy was setting his templates right beside the playing area, moving them around / etc., basically doing everything short of actually putting the template on the playing area with his ship.  Most people have the templates sitting to the side, that's not what I meant.  :-)

OK we're on the same page then… cheers!

 



#9 Darth_Malus

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for the quick responses.

I agree to all the reponses here.  Those are the positions I took at the tourney.

I admit I missed the bit about the defender using his/her abilities to modify dice before the attacker.  So I missed the call on that game by saying the defender couldn't use an ability to change a 'Han Solo'd' attack roll.  It wasn't my tourney though so not really my resposibility, but I will definitely know for the ones I run from here on out.  


 


#10 CPTMcMurphy

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:11 PM

Remember, when utilizing Elusiveness you could technically have your appoint reroll one of the dice he has choosen not to reroll; since most reroll effects in the game do not require you to reroll all dice there is a chance some of the dice are still in their original rolled state.  Given that you can't reroll a reroll making your oppenent wait until he did the rerolls he wanted to before declaring Elusiveness would just be pointless.  Save time and just declare it as soon as you can so that your oppenent can reroll all the declared dice at once.

I believe that the rules for Boost are specifically mentioned on the rule card that comes with the new ships that have boost.  These rules make boost to be just like a barrel roll in that you can premeasure to decide if you want or can legally take the ACTION.

I believe that when most players read in the core book rulethat you can not premeasure movements using movement templates that they believe that this rule specific refers to templates that came with the game.  The rule is more broad in that no template of any type may be used, therefor you could not even use your hand since it could be jusified to being a type of template for measuring distance.  Hint, hint;  if you find yourself needing to measure a distance, you can use a body part to get a close approximation of that distance's measurement.  You play the game enough and you will be able to estimate movement by eye, so get out there and practice more.

 



#11 ziggy2000

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

Remember, when utilizing Elusiveness you could technically have your appoint reroll one of the dice he has choosen not to reroll; since most reroll effects in the game do not require you to reroll all dice there is a chance some of the dice are still in their original rolled state.  Given that you can't reroll a reroll making your oppenent wait until he did the rerolls he wanted to before declaring Elusiveness would just be pointless.  Save time and just declare it as soon as you can so that your oppenent can reroll all the declared dice at once.

 

 

In point of fact, there is no choice to be made -  you HAVE to declare Elusiveness and make the attacker reroll the chosen die BEFORE any rerolls or modifications by the attacker can be made. This is spelled out on page 11, where it is stated that "If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker." So Elusiveness MUST be resolved before any rerolls/modifications by the attacker are made, such as Target Lock, Han's ability, Marksmanship or whatever. This locks down the die from being rerolled by the attacker, whether the result is beneficial to the defender or not.

 



#12 ScottieATF

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:41 PM

CPTMcMurphy said:

Remember, when utilizing Elusiveness you could technically have your appoint reroll one of the dice he has choosen not to reroll; since most reroll effects in the game do not require you to reroll all dice there is a chance some of the dice are still in their original rolled state.  Given that you can't reroll a reroll making your oppenent wait until he did the rerolls he wanted to before declaring Elusiveness would just be pointless.  Save time and just declare it as soon as you can so that your oppenent can reroll all the declared dice at once.

 

You need to re-read the rulebook a bit.






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