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Pentoshi Manor and Lost Oasis


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#1 erockbaratheon

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

Can someone explain if PM takes away the gained stealth? and what about using LO on a character who already has stealth. I need to understand how keywords and "gained abilities" work.



#2 Khudzlin

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:02 AM

Pentoshi Manor will take away all keywords, no matter whether they are printed or gained and no matter how many instances of them there are. See King Balon's host.



#3 erockbaratheon

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:21 AM

Awesome possum, 

How about a character with printed stealth, who is then PM and after I ALREADY manor-ed then gives stealth?

Thanks again



#4 mdc273

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

Khudzlin said:

Pentoshi Manor will take away all keywords, no matter whether they are printed or gained and no matter how many instances of them there are. See King Balon's host.

I thought it was "all" meant one instance of each and "loses x" meant every instance of x?



#5 -Istaril

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

That was what Ktom had last said, but in the same set of rulings where we first found out that B&P affects KotHH, I seem to recall there being a clarification where all was all instances of all keywords.



#6 mdc273

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:04 PM

-Istaril said:

That was what Ktom had last said, but in the same set of rulings where we first found out that B&P affects KotHH, I seem to recall there being a clarification where all was all instances of all keywords.

So any effect that causes you to lose something causes you to lose all of that something?



#7 Khudzlin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:53 PM

Pentoshi Manor says "all keywords". "Lose something" means one instance, but "lose all something" means all instances.



#8 J_Roel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

Does Pentoshi create a lasting effect that removes each new keyword the character might gain after the effect resolves?


"...and Balerion... his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed over head."


#9 Khudzlin

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

I'm not sure about that (and about all lasting effects that might or might not adjust their scope).



#10 mdc273

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:03 AM

J_Roel said:

Does Pentoshi create a lasting effect that removes each new keyword the character might gain after the effect resolves?

Yes. Similar to strength, the all is continually recalculated.

@Khudzlin - Are you sure? This doesn't mesh with what Istaril and I seem to remember, but I am terrible at using the FFG search function. Or am I misunderstanding you, Istaril?



#11 Alando

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

I don't think there was an FFG ruling on keywords but there was one that "loses all traits" means "all traits now and future":

http://www.fantasyfl...&efpag=0#754763

 

From that we assumed it applied to "loses all keywords" as well.



#12 doulos2k

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

I felt that how Damon's response on this (as quoted by others) was still ambiguous as it did not actually define the scope of "all." So, I asked for more specific clarification, and this is what I received from Damon:

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Loses all, regardless of whether it is keywords or traits, means that character loses one instance of every one of those things in the game. So if keywords is what is being lost and the character had stealth and deadly it would lose both of those keywords. If you tried to give it renown it would lose that as well. But it only loses one instance of each. If you played an attachment which gave the character another instance of stealth it would be Steath + Stealth - Stealth = Steath.

Treat a card effect that says "loses all" as if the word all were replaced with one instance of each keyword (or trait or icon, tc.) that exists in the game.


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#13 Khudzlin

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 07:03 PM

This is a reversal of a previous ruling… The headache…



#14 -Istaril

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:53 PM

At least this one is consitant with ktom's previous interpretation, and leaves no room for ambiguity.



#15 doulos2k

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:54 AM

Are we sure this is a reversal and not just a misunderstanding? Reading all of the previous posts I could find is what led me to ask for clarification because all of Damon's answers seemed to keep using the word "all" without really defining how far "all" went. It seemed more like he was trying to clarify that Pentoshi was indeed a lasting effect and not a point-in-time effect. At least from the posts I'd read.

As Istaril says though - at least this one does not leave room for ambiguity.


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#16 mdc273

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

doulos2k said:

I felt that how Damon's response on this (as quoted by others) was still ambiguous as it did not actually define the scope of "all." So, I asked for more specific clarification, and this is what I received from Damon:

------------------------------------

Loses all, regardless of whether it is keywords or traits, means that character loses one instance of every one of those things in the game. So if keywords is what is being lost and the character had stealth and deadly it would lose both of those keywords. If you tried to give it renown it would lose that as well. But it only loses one instance of each. If you played an attachment which gave the character another instance of stealth it would be Steath + Stealth - Stealth = Steath.

Treat a card effect that says "loses all" as if the word all were replaced with one instance of each keyword (or trait or icon, tc.) that exists in the game.

Okay, so we're officially back to loses one instance of every possible trait/keyword/etc? I'm confused. We had this cleared up in another thread that had what was supposed to be an actual quote from Damon. It differed from the thread linked to here.

This would still mean that Pentoshi Manor would provide -1 Stealth and that you would need to get +2 Stealth to counteract it for reference back to the OP.



#17 doulos2k

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:54 AM

If you mean this text: "I would assume that Ktom is thinking of "Lose each trait" when he said it means "loses one instance of each trait." The word each does signify that every single trait on the card at the time would be lost. All however means all traits now and future. It is a constant effect making each new trait acquired by the card in question to be lost."

It was that post that prompted my question. Damon's response could be interpreted two different ways and it was not clear enough to me.

  1. Damon's use of "at the time" could be limiting his "all traits now and future" to still only meaning a single instance now and future - it isn't the first time he's misunderstood what we're quoting ktom as saying. Even with the "each new trait" phrase… he could still have been thinking of each NEW trait (meaning traits the card did not previously have - another accurate definition of the word "new")
  2. He could have meant any and all traits, even duplicates of those traits now and future.

I know almost everyone (ktom included) on that thread took the second meaning, but it was worthy of further clarification as far as I was concerned. So, I asked for detail and I got what you see in my post above - all ambiguity (in my mind at least) is removed.


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#18 mdc273

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

doulos2k said:

If you mean this text: "I would assume that Ktom is thinking of "Lose each trait" when he said it means "loses one instance of each trait." The word each does signify that every single trait on the card at the time would be lost. All however means all traits now and future. It is a constant effect making each new trait acquired by the card in question to be lost."

It was that post that prompted my question. Damon's response could be interpreted two different ways and it was not clear enough to me.

  1. Damon's use of "at the time" could be limiting his "all traits now and future" to still only meaning a single instance now and future - it isn't the first time he's misunderstood what we're quoting ktom as saying. Even with the "each new trait" phrase… he could still have been thinking of each NEW trait (meaning traits the card did not previously have - another accurate definition of the word "new")
  2. He could have meant any and all traits, even duplicates of those traits now and future.

I know almost everyone (ktom included) on that thread took the second meaning, but it was worthy of further clarification as far as I was concerned. So, I asked for detail and I got what you see in my post above - all ambiguity (in my mind at least) is removed.

Okay, cool. So "all keywords/traits/etc." should be interpreted as 1 of each. No one ever ask this question ever again please!!!!






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