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Stealthing passed Walder Frey


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#1 Bomb

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:13 AM

If an attacker stealths passed Walder Frey, and the defender defends with enough that they will be winning the challenge, does Walder Frey do nothing?

Stealth keeps a character from defending the challenge.

Walder Frey's text:

After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge, kneel Walder Frey to have him participate on the side that is currently winning the challenge.

 

I say he does nothing because he cannot defend, but I am curious what others think because the effect is passive.

 

Also, a fun note - Declare a Naval defender and he joins the winning side immediately.  :-)



#2 Robby Stark

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:33 AM

I'm not even trying to understand how walder frey works. seriously I don't get this guy. he just keeps killing himself like an idiot.



#3 Khudzlin

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:51 AM

He will kneel because his passive initiates regardless of whether it can succeed (his kneeling is a cost), but it will fail. As for naval defenders: seems to work that way.



#4 Bomb

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:40 AM

Khudzlin said:

He will kneel because his passive initiates regardless of whether it can succeed (his kneeling is a cost), but it will fail. As for naval defenders: seems to work that way.

Good call.  Stealth doesn't prohibit character abilities from initiating if their effect allows a character to participate in the challenge.  They simply fail to resolve.



#5 mdc273

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

Khudzlin said:

He will kneel because his passive initiates regardless of whether it can succeed (his kneeling is a cost), but it will fail. As for naval defenders: seems to work that way.

Paying the cost is part of the initiation of the effect. If you can't initiate an effect due to a play restriction, how can you pay its cost?



#6 stormwolf27

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

mdc273 said:

Khudzlin said:

 

He will kneel because his passive initiates regardless of whether it can succeed (his kneeling is a cost), but it will fail. As for naval defenders: seems to work that way.

 

 

Paying the cost is part of the initiation of the effect. If you can't initiate an effect due to a play restriction, how can you pay its cost?

Because if something tells you to "Do x to do y," then you can still do x if y cannot succeed. It's the same reason cards stay knelt/discarded/returned to hand/etc when someone uses a "cancel triggered effect" response.


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#7 Khudzlin

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

The only play restriction in Walder Frey's passive ability is the timing "After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge". "Cannot" has 2 effects:

  1. it makes effects fail
  2. it invalidates targets

Initiation can be prevented by:

  1. failure to meet the play restriction
  2. lack of targets
  3. inabilty to pay the cost

Now let's analyse Walder's passive:

  1. Play restriction: "After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge" (timing)
  2. Targets: none
  3. Cost: "kneel Walder Frey"
  4. Effect: "have him participate on the side that is currently winning the challenge

The play restriction is met (we assume so). No targets, so cannot aspect #2 does not make initiation fail. Barring Black Cells' response on Walder Frey earlier, the cost can be paid. Initiation complete. However, the effect fails because Walder cannot defend.



#8 mdc273

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

Khudzlin said:

The only play restriction in Walder Frey's passive ability is the timing "After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge". "Cannot" has 2 effects:

  1. it makes effects fail
  2. it invalidates targets

Initiation can be prevented by:

  1. failure to meet the play restriction
  2. lack of targets
  3. inabilty to pay the cost

Now let's analyse Walder's passive:

  1. Play restriction: "After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge" (timing)
  2. Targets: none
  3. Cost: "kneel Walder Frey"
  4. Effect: "have him participate on the side that is currently winning the challenge

The play restriction is met (we assume so). No targets, so cannot aspect #2 does not make initiation fail. Barring Black Cells' response on Walder Frey earlier, the cost can be paid. Initiation complete. However, the effect fails because Walder cannot defend.

I see Walder as having two initiations, much like The Maester's Path

1. Play restriction: After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge

2. Play restriction: Walder Frey must be able to participate in the challenge as either attacker or defender (whichever is relevant at the time his ability initiates).

3. Cost: Kneel Walder Frey

4. Effect: Have him partipicate on the side that is currently winning the challenge

Why is 2 not a second play restriction in this case? If Walder's only ability was 2 and was a triggered effect, would you be able to trigger it here?



#9 Khudzlin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:47 PM

Walder's passive ability does not target anything. "Cannot", like "moribund" or immunity does not create restrictions from effects, only from costs or targets.



#10 stormwolf27

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:20 PM

mdc273 said:

 


2. Play restriction: Walder Frey must be able to participate in the challenge as either attacker or defender (whichever is relevant at the time his ability initiates).


 

 

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#11 Khudzlin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:58 PM

stormwolf27 said:

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.

Challenge icons aren't a requirement for participating in a challenge, only for being declared as an attacker or defender.



#12 stormwolf27

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:11 PM

Khudzlin said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.

 

 

Challenge icons aren't a requirement for participating in a challenge, only for being declared as an attacker or defender.

If icons are not a normal eligibility requirement, then why do some cards specify that they can only jump into challenges "for which [they] are eligible?" It's how you can leave Coldhands standing and not participating in challenges, as long as you don't give him any icons… because he is not eligible to participate.

Cards that simply say "do [x] to have [this character] participate in the current challenge as…" don't require the character to have icons because of the golden rule of card text superceeding the rules text.

Pg 4, #5 (Core Set Rulebook):

Challenge Icons: Indicates the types of challenges
this character may participate in as an
attacker or defender

 

Says nothing about specifying declaration or bringing in through an effect.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#13 Bomb

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:14 AM

Card text overrides game rules.

#14 Bomb

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:20 AM

Just had another thought.  If Walder Frey's ability forces him to kneel regardless of his ability to participate in the challenge, if he were to be given any icons at all, then he'd be nearly useless for any time he didn't kneel to attack.  E.g. if he had an INT icon and you had Game of Thrones revealed.  As long as the opponent declares a defender, he is kneeling. 

I think there might be some opportunities out there that can turn him into something interesting, but he really is more of a Nedly character than of any real use at all.



#15 Daenarys

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

stormwolf27 said:

mdc273 said:

 


2. Play restriction: Walder Frey must be able to participate in the challenge as either attacker or defender (whichever is relevant at the time his ability initiates).


 

 

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.

 

Another example where the icon gets overruled is the Tywin Lannister that allows knelt Clansmann to particapte in a challenge he initiated. I could for example do an intrigue challenge with Tywin and include knelt clasmann irrespective whether or not they have an intrigue icon.



#16 Khudzlin

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:07 AM

You'd really have to work for that situation to be relevant. And let's not forget we're talking about 0-gold 4-STR character (even Stark doesn't get characters with such stats - closest is 0/3 or 1/4). His lack of icons and messing around in challenges is the drawback you have to suffer for the stats.



#17 Bomb

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:27 AM

Khudzlin said:

You'd really have to work for that situation to be relevant. And let's not forget we're talking about 0-gold 4-STR character (even Stark doesn't get characters with such stats - closest is 0/3 or 1/4). His lack of icons and messing around in challenges is the drawback you have to suffer for the stats.

The only effort involved really would be giving him the icon though.  Potentially A Game of Thrones could be revealed and going first may normally be part of the plan anyway.  I'm just saying he really isn't a character you can do too many tricks with because unless no defenders are declared, he is going to be kneeling after the first challenge.

Honestly though, he may very well be a good fit in Martell with the new Greenblood Vessel as long as you don't declare defenders on that first challenge with them both out.



#18 mdc273

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

stormwolf27 said:

 

mdc273 said:

 


2. Play restriction: Walder Frey must be able to participate in the challenge as either attacker or defender (whichever is relevant at the time his ability initiates).


 

 

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.

 

 

Well first and foremost, I have no faith in anything in the Core Set Rulebook. The FAQ probably clarifies half the damn book in some way.

Next is the "for which they are eligible" part. If they did not include this, then they would indeed be able to participate in any challenge, whether or not they are eligible for it. That text is necessary because of game rules overruling basic rules. It is explicitly stating that the ability does not give them the power to participate in challenges for which they are not eligible.

Redacted!

I don't know the correct answer, but I realized him kneeling and failing does not conflict with the way Maester's Path double play restriction works.



#19 stormwolf27

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:11 PM

mdc273 said:

 

Well first and foremost, I have no faith in anything in the Core Set Rulebook. The FAQ probably clarifies half the damn book in some way.

And what about the other half?

I'm beginning to think a lot of people, not necessarily yourself, are becoming unfamiliar with the rules that aren't clarified (because they don't need to be) because they throw away the core book and focus on just what is covered in the FAQ.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#20 stormwolf27

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:12 PM

Daenarys said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

mdc273 said:

 


2. Play restriction: Walder Frey must be able to participate in the challenge as either attacker or defender (whichever is relevant at the time his ability initiates).


 

 

His effect says nothing about this. He has no icons, so if this were a play restriction for his passive initiation, it could never be activated unless you gave him an appropriate challenge icon.

 

 

 

Another example where the icon gets overruled is the Tywin Lannister that allows knelt Clansmann to particapte in a challenge he initiated. I could for example do an intrigue challenge with Tywin and include knelt clasmann irrespective whether or not they have an intrigue icon.

 

I think you mean Tyrion, not Tywin, but I think we get what you're saying. ;-)


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka





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