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#1 Nurddude

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

Well, I always have a bunch of ideas for characters, but now that I have access to Dominus Exxet, I have quite a few questions. Some are me wondering about rulings,  So without further ado, let us begin

1) Can one learn both Ki and Nemesis? While it says that many consider then opposite principles, I did not see anywhere that you could no use them together.

2) Does the -10 and -30 to damage from Armor of Emptiness (Nemesis) and Nohr (Nemesis) stack?

3) With all "Impossible Weapons," do the DP and MK cost only allow you to wield such weapons?If so, if it is chosen at character creation, do you start with the weapon? Or is it a type of module that applies to all weapons that fall under its catagory?

4) Can one use Umbra to provide the weapons needed for the Impossibe Weapons, so long as there is no quality bonus needed?

5) Is there any way to grant quality to an item? I was wondering specifically hair for Cancer or magically ehancing your shadow for Umbra.

6) Could you have an Impossible Weapon benefit from two or more of the templates? An example would be Sagittarius-Capricorn needles.

 

Also, if you are still with me up to this point, what do you think of the following cominations? I made them up for both gameplay and story:

Blindness (Disadvantage) coupled with Eyes of the Soul (Legacy)? Eyes of Destiny (Legacy) and Eyes of the Future (Uriel)? Eyes of the Dead

(Legacy),Capricorn (Weapon), Agnitium: Absolute Eye (Magnus), and Umbra? Ophiucos (Weapon) and Etherial: Infinite Attacks (Magnus)? Raikou:

Lightning Blade (Magnus) and Etherial: Infinite Attacks (Magnus)? 

 

Well, that is all!

 

For now…



#2 Black-Fox

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:47 PM

 1) Can one learn both Ki and Nemesis? While it says that many consider then opposite principles, I did not see anywhere that you could no use them together.

Nothing stops you from learning both. It says as much at the begining of the Nemesis abilities in the book.


2) Does the -10 and -30 to damage from Armor of Emptiness (Nemesis) and Nohr (Nemesis) stack?

I would say that it overrides it.


3) With all "Impossible Weapons," do the DP and MK cost only allow you to wield such weapons?If so, if it is chosen at character creation, do you start with the weapon? Or is it a type of module that applies to all weapons that fall under its catagory?

Aquarius: Cape Weapons = Only requires clothing.
Aries: Weapon Swarm = Requires chains and weapons.
Cancer: Monofilament Weapons = Only requires something that can be used as such.
Capricornus: Needles = Reqires the needles.
Gemini: Marionette Weapons = Requires the puppets.
Leo: Weapon-Pistols = Requires the Artifact.
Libra: Variable Weapon = Only requires a weapon, not a specific weapon.
Ophiuchus: Lord of the Infinite Swords = Requires actual weapons.
Pisces: Yo-Yo = Requires a weapon.
Sagittarius: Throwing Objects = Only requires something to be thrown.
Scorpius: Sword-Whip = Requires the weapon.
Taurus: Giant Double-headed Weapons = Requires the weapon.
Virgo: Musical Instruments = Requires the instrument.

As you can see, most require some specific object/equipment. But technically buying the Impossible Weapons only give you the ability to use those weapons, I does not magically make the piece of required equipment appear to the character. Those that dont require something specifc like Aquarius, Cancer, Libra, or Sagittarius dont require anything out of the ordinary, just allow you to use something you most likely already have in new, unique ways.

As for the character starting out with some of the unique items, thats really between you and your GM. But for some of them it wouldnt be that difficult.


4) Can one use Umbra to provide the weapons needed for the Impossibe Weapons, so long as there is no quality bonus needed?

For the most part, I would say no. Because Umbra has its own stats for it as a weapon, and they would take precedence, even if it was possible, it would be mostly pointless. However nothing stops you from describing your shadows as taking those shapes and making them appear like some of the Impossible Weapons.


5) Is there any way to grant quality to an item? I was wondering specifically hair for Cancer or magically ehancing your shadow for Umbra.

As I have already stated in a post on the other Anima forum, Cancer does not REQUIRE you to have something that it +5 Quality to use for it. I makes whatever you use for it CONSIDERED +5 Quality.


6) Could you have an Impossible Weapon benefit from two or more of the templates? An example would be Sagittarius-Capricorn needles.

I dont see any reason why you couldnt.
 

Also, if you are still with me up to this point, what do you think of the following cominations? I made them up for both gameplay and story:

Blindness (Disadvantage) coupled with Eyes of the Soul (Legacy)? Eyes of Destiny (Legacy) and Eyes of the Future (Uriel)? Eyes of the Dead (Legacy),Capricorn (Weapon), Agnitium: Absolute Eye (Magnus), and Umbra? Ophiucos (Weapon) and Etherial: Infinite Attacks (Magnus)? Raikou: Lightning Blade (Magnus) and Etherial: Infinite Attacks (Magnus)?

The majority of the 'Eye' abilities that you meantion specifically say that they require sight, so combining them with Blindness is pointless, as you wouldnt be able to use them.
With the various combinations of Magnus's and Impossible Weapons, my first thought is for you to go through and read them properly, because I know that several of those specifically state they cant be used with other Magnus/Impossible Weapons/Techniques, Ophiucos is one of those.



#3 F3nr1s

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:49 PM

I will try to answer some questions:

1. Yes, you can learn Nemesis and Ki at the same time. AFAIR, it is explicit stated somewhere in the book.

2. I don't think they stack, because Noth is a upgraded version of armor of emptiness

3. I don't excatly remember and don't have the time to look for it (maybe later this day)

4. AFAIR Umbra doesn't create objects from shadow (like sword or so), so I would say: No, you can't

5. For example one of the Shajad give every item a character wields the values of a +15 quality item (also weapons etc.), but in this case, I would say Umbra isn't a weapon.

6. I think the impossible weapons are not combinable (they are weapons, which needs special training, it would like to combine a katana with a bow)

 

To your combinations: I would need to read the descriptions, but don't have the time at the moment.

So long,



#4 Nurddude

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

Thanks for the quick answers, I appreciate them. Black-Fox, I have some additional questions/comments for you:

The way you look at Cancer is quite different for how I look at it. The book states that "Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality…" by saying so, I assume that normal items do not have the ability/strength to be used with Cancer. And just as you say that the weapon doesn't appear because you buy the Impossible weapon, I also don't think that items are suddely treated as +5 Quality.

Also, you are conflicted when it comes to combinations. You say that Umbra cannot be used with the Impossible Weapons because it has its own stats, and then go on to say that two different Impossible Weapons effects could be used together, even though they also have different stats. Also, I do not see how Umbra would be pointless. Umbra seems to give you the ability to create any type of weapon that you could want, allowing you to never need to carry weapons on you. My combination of the Eyes of Death, Capricorn, Agnitium: Absolute Eye, and Umbra would be a powerful combonation for any assassin.

As for the Eyes, the only one I combined with Blindness was Eyes of the Soul. I did this because the description of Blood is as follows: "This ability also allows him to perceive the form of all the objects or things that 'he sees,'even if these do not give off energy. Consequently, he can use his Ki Detection, instead of the Secondary Abilities Notice and Search, to make any kind of perception check that uses sight as the principal means." I beleive that this would allow characters without sight to instead use Ki Detection as a crafty way to see the world around them.

After looking into my other combinations, I beleive you were a bit off when you said "I know that several of those specifically state that they cant be used with other Magnus/Impossible Weapons/Techniques." Beside Ophiucos, I saw nothing that explicitly states that they cannot be used in combination.

 

Also, at F3nr1s: Actually, Umbra can create objects from shadow: "Using his energy to mold his shadow and give it solidity, a character can create blades, spectral arms, or almost anything imaginable."

Thank you both for your time, and I hope you both get the chance to look over the combinations to see what you think about them.



#5 Black-Fox

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:10 PM

First just let me say that I didnt look into all of your combinations in depth, all my answers regarding them were mostly off the top of my head. Why? Because honestly I didnt care about them. In my experience most people asking about things like Blindness + 'Eye' abilities, or combining various different Abilities/Magnus/Legacies of Blood together are just looking for someone to approve of their attempts to exploit the system to make something obscene, and thats not something I will have any part of.

Now in realtion to the other things you said:

The way you look at Cancer is quite different for how I look at it. The book states that "Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality…" by saying so, I assume that normal items do not have the ability/strength to be used with Cancer. And just as you say that the weapon doesn't appear because you buy the Impossible weapon, I also don't think that items are suddely treated as +5 Quality.

I find it interesting that you can make that quote to me and yet completely ignore the rest of the exact same section. So allow me to finish it for you. "Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality, otherwise they could not move and cut the way that they do. The basic monofilament weapon of Cancer is considered to be +5 Quality."
So as for you not thinking that they are suddenly treated as +5 Quality, I suggest re-reading what it actually says.
I said that for most of them it doesnt just magically give you the weapon. However there are some that simply modify common objects that you have on hand, like Clothing for Aquarius and any weapon at hand for Libra. And from the way Cancer is described, at least in every place except for that half a line you decided to quoted, I believe that it is one of them. It simply modifies something that you have on hand that could be used as a monofilament weapon.


Also, you are conflicted when it comes to combinations. You say that Umbra cannot be used with the Impossible Weapons because it has its own stats, and then go on to say that two different Impossible Weapons effects could be used together, even though they also have different stats. Also, I do not see how Umbra would be pointless. Umbra seems to give you the ability to create any type of weapon that you could want, allowing you to never need to carry weapons on you. My combination of the Eyes of Death, Capricorn, Agnitium: Absolute Eye, and Umbra would be a powerful combonation for any assassin.

Allow me to clarify here where I can. When I agreed with you for Question 6, I was agreeing with the specific combination of Sagittarius-Capricorn, as in Sagittarius is specfically states that other throwing weapons can be used. For others it would depend on what the combination is, although I cant see too many of them even being able to be combined anyway.
When I spoke about Umbra, I did not mean that taking Umbra itself was pointless, I ment that in most cases the abilities that Umbra has on its own are better then those of an Impossible Weapon, so it would simply be easier to use Umbra instead anyway.
I personally would not allow Umbra to be used in connection with anything that is based around a projectile attack, as I dont believe that Umbra can fire shodow based projectiles.

 

Disclaimer: If anyone has a problem with any of my opinions, then that is your problem, not mine, because they are exactly that, OPINIONS. Which were asked for. If you can't handle everyones opinion then I suggest not asking for them.



#6 Nurddude

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:56 PM

I understand that your opinion is only that, but when I feel like I am being attacked from your first comment, I will respond in kind. However, that was immature and I apologize for that.

I still disagree with Cancer. Let us take the full quote: "Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality, otherwise they could not move and cut the way that they do. The basic monofilament weapon of Cancer is considered to be +5 Quality."

First you agree that the fisrt part does make it seem that it has to be of Quality, if I understood you right. I read the second half as saying that the basic statistics given for Cancer already have the bonus from +5 Quality added in. Also, There is a specific reason that Aquarius and Libra are different than Cancer. The former two require that you have the Ki ability Aura Extension, because it says in the description of both that you are using your own Ki to augment the Items that you use.

And that is why I still beleive that Cancer has to be used with a weapon of quality.



#7 Black-Fox

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:11 AM

First you agree that the fisrt part does make it seem that it has to be of Quality, if I understood you right. I read the second half as saying that the basic statistics given for Cancer already have the bonus from +5 Quality added in. Also, There is a specific reason that Aquarius and Libra are different than Cancer. The former two require that you have the Ki ability Aura Extension, because it says in the description of both that you are using your own Ki to augment the Items that you use.

 

It would seem that you are in fact not understanding me. I have never once said that I believe that Cancer requires a +5 Quality weapon, in fact I have repeatedly stated the opposite.
"Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality, otherwise they could not move and cut the way that they do. The basic monofilament weapon of Cancer is considered to be +5 Quality."
Note the Bolded and Underlined section. This is the reason why it sounded like I said that that the "basic statistics given for Cancer already have the bonus from +5 Quality added in", because it very clearly states as much in the book itself. Now also let me point out that the section in the book where that quote is located, the "Quality:" section, is not stating a requirement of Quality, but how Quality affects the weapon. Compare it to any other of the Impossible Weapons that list a section for Quality, you will find that they are talking about how Quality items affect the statistics for that weapon. With the only exception being, Ophiuchus, which actually says that the character must use certain quality items. The difference there though, it specifically says "must use". Where as Cancer is stating that Monofiliment weapons are considered weapons of exception quality.

Also for Aura Extension; Virgo, Scorpio, Sagittarius and Ophiuchus all require it too, so I dont see why you thing that is significant here. Every single one of these weapons is wielded by the user by using their own Ki to manipulate and control these weapons, which is why Use of Ki is required for every one of them. And if you do not think that is the case, then you really need to go back to the start of the whole section and read it again.



#8 Nurddude

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:47 AM

Actually, I thought you agreed that the part I quoted made it seem so: "And from the way Cancer is described, at least in every place except for that half a line you decided to quoted, I believe that it is one of them." But I guess I was wrong.

You must have missed the word necessarily in the description of Quality with Cancer. Lets look at some synonyms: ineluctably, inescapably, inevitably, ipso facto, needs, perforce, unavoidably. How can you say that that isn't the same as "must use?"

The reason that Aura extention is important is because you used it to try to make it logical why Cancer would transform things into Quality Items. However, all of the ones (that I have read) with Aura Extention state in the desciption that they use the characters own energy to change the item. Cancer only says that you control the movement, not any other aspect, of the weapon.



#9 Nurddude

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:31 AM

I guess in the end it comes down to what we each think a "monofiliment weapon" is. I do not believe that any form of non-prepared, non-specialized filiment is able to be used as a weapon. While normal hair may be a monofiliment item, it is in no way a weapon. I believe that such weapons always have a +5 Quality becauses they cannot function without being a superior material. Any normal quality item is simply incapable of holding up to the rigor of battle. Nomal items are not given a +5 Quality bonus merely by having Cancer, seeing as the Ki only controls its movement, not its composition.



#10 Black-Fox

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:38 AM

Continously you have quoted small pieces of information and single words that work into your theory and ignoring the entry as a whole. Now you have even begun doing it with bits that I have said, so to be honest I have lost interest in helping. Its obvious we are not going to agree on this point. Although you can feel free to ask around the forums to try and prove me wrong if you are that insecure.

The reason why I so strongly believe my opinion, is because I look at the entry as a whole, and also apply some simple common sense based on what Cancer is described as being able to do. Because the alternative doing what you are doing and trying to think up some why to reason having Hair as +5 Quality, dispite the fact that although impossible as that may be, the entry for Cancer clearly states you can use hair for it. But then common sense is usually the first thing to go in roleplaying.

However I will leave you with one final thought: If you apprently need to have a specific monofilment weapon crafted to use Cancer, then why is it that is specifically states in Virgo's entry that if you have Cancer the strings on a stringed instrument can be used as a monofilament? Again common sense tells me that it is because you dont need a specific weapon and just something that is wire like on hand, but hey, I'm sure you will find some small section or word in that entry that you can quote on its own to make it mean something completely different.



#11 F3nr1s

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:04 AM

To Cancer: In the description of cancer is the possible use of the characters hair described. And I think, nobody has "+5 Quality Hair".

But now to the problem with the quality. Are there any monofilament weapons _without_ cancer? I don't think so. So, to say "it must be a monofilament weapon +5 qualtiy" would also say "there are monofilament weapons without qualtiy", which isn't the case.

So, why the necessarily: I hope Black-Fox and Nurddude could agree with me, that the fibers of a normal or low quality hemp rope wouldn't be usable with cancer, because they wouldn't be "good" enough. The fibers of a +5 quality rope could be a different case (could be, if the fibers themself are +5 quality and not only the rope). But I don't think that the +5 quality is a must, because like said above: there are no +5 quality hairs. I think it is only meant, that the cancer-user can't take everything up and use it as cancer, it must be a higher standard as normal fibers.

If it must be +5 quality, something like hair wouldn't be usable.

And a second time: To say, it must be a +5 monofilament weapon would mean, that there must be +0 monofilament weapons, but only cancer could use monofilament weapons and to say "they must be +5" would be a odd.

And to Umbra: Where have anyone read, that I can create items with umbra, so that I can use them with impossible weapon modules?

So long,



#12 Sidisessinu

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:31 PM

I just read through this impossible weapon and it says that hair can be used. Since the weilder has to have "Use of Ki" in can be omplied that this grants the fiber being used the automatic +5 quality.

"This Magnus involves the use of some kind of almost invisible thread to fight. the monofilament can be any number of materials: metal, crystal, or even long hair. Normally, a character using monofilaments exerts a supernatural control over his weapon, allowing him to weave the innumerable filaments around him to cut, hold, or destroy as he pleases."

Quality: Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality, otherwise they could not move and cut the way the do. The basic monofilament weapon of Cancer is considered to be a +5 Quality."

This would imply that it is not of +5 quality but is treat as such while being used by a Cancer practicioner.



#13 Nurddude

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:53 PM

Black-Fox, I am sorry for the anger that was brewing during this conversation. While I had apologized, it seemed like I had already offended you in such a way that it was impossible for you to treat me with respect. I responded in kind, which has lead us to quite a lot of arguing. I hope that we will be able to work better on other threads. I also think that we will be unable to agree on the ruling of Cancer. The way I would reason hair having a +5 quality would be because of the anime Basilisk. One of the characters uses the hair of women that has been treated in oils and other substances to give them the consistency of steel.

 

F3nr1s, I beleive that there are monofiliment weapons without Cancer, just as I beleive that there are needles without Capricorn. I just don't beleive that the wording is meant to be taken that any object that is thread like, such as normal hair, would be able to stand up to battle. Also there are no 0 Quality Monofiliment Weapons, because for them to BE monofiliment weapons, they have to have a +5 Quality: "Monofilament weapons are necessarily weapons of Exceptional Quality, otherwise they could not move and cut the way that they do."

As for Umbra, I have no idea what I was thinking. I read the passage "Using his energy to mold his shadow and give it solidity, a character can create blades, spectral arms, or almost anything imaginable," I thought that one could create weapons. What really happened was that I mixed up the base rulings of Umbra with some of Elrics homebrew stuff (which would allow you to create real weapons). I am sorry that I was so off on that subject.

 

Sidisessinu, the way that I see "The basic monofilament weapon of Cancer is considered to be a +5 Quality" line is that the basic form of Cancer, whos stats are in the book, have already had the bonuses from having a +5 Quality added in. This is because, the way I see it, it is impossible for any item that is not of +5 Quality to have the durability to be used in combat.



#14 Nurddude

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:21 PM

Also,after looking at the official forum over at cipher studios, I know that I am not the only one to think that they have to be weapons of quality.



#15 Latoshi

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

The question I would like to adress is the one regarding using two or more impossible weapon templates at once. My ruling as a GM, anyone is free to propose a counter argument, is no. Becuase it states that each magnus has its own weapon characteristics, I found it a difficult ruling mainly becuase you can argue both sides effectivly well, But I took it as the magnus was a specific way to weild that weapon to get the desired effect, making weilding a weapon in two differant ways at once impossible.


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