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infirmary vs dimensional rift


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#1 kamacausey

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:56 AM

what happens if i pop a dimensional rift whenever my opponent has an infirmary in play? does he get all of his guys back or do they all get destroyed along with the infirmary?



#2 TheProfessor

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:35 AM

I think your opponent could use the Disrupt on Infirmary to put all Miskatonic characters back in hand…  It is a timing question as to when the Infirmary is destroyed.  If it is last, then you could Disrupt on each Miskatonic character that is destroyed.  However if it is destroyed first, then you could not use it.  Of course it is simultaneous…  Hmm…



#3 Danigral

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

From the FAQ, 1.7:

 

"Whenever character or support cards enter or leave play at the same time, the controlling player chooses the order in which they enter or leave play."
 
So you can choose to have your characters be destroyed before your Infirmary so that you can save the character. Since characters leave play one at a time, you are able to trigger the disrupt for each character. I'm not sure if the wording on this (i.e. "a character") limit you to triggering the disrupt only once once you save one character, though.
 
I would send this to FFG for a ruling to be sure. Down at the very bottom: rules questions link.


#4 jhaelen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:53 PM

Danigral said:

So you can choose to have your characters be destroyed before your Infirmary so that you can save the character.

Agreed. That's how it works. You can definitely use the disrupt whenever the trigger occurs.



#5 .Zephyr.

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:32 AM

I wouldnt use word "definitely" when talking about CoC disrupt timing… Its far from clear IMO.

Infirmary has a replacement that changes destroy effect, so you should be able to trigger it before Rifts effect even resolves, enabling you to save any MU characters, the order of cards destruction doesnt even matter here, as disrupts are triggered between initiation and resolution (see FAQ "The Action Window in Detail" section) so if its not your rift and controller chooses to destroy infirmary first disrupt has already altered the effect.

[But maybe if infirmary is destroyed its alteration is cancelled, i dont think so but maybe, those rulings tend to be problematic and FAQ explanations sometimes lack necesairy clarity and precission]

At least thats what i think. To be sure ask using ruling link (and post answer here pls)



#6 jhaelen

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

.Zephyr. said:

if its not your rift and controller chooses to destroy infirmary first disrupt has already altered the effect.

Either I totally don't understand what you're trying to say or you should reread the quote above:

It's the controller of Infirmary and any number of characters that chooses the order of destruction, not the controller of Dimensional Rift!

Choosing Infirmary first would cause it to leave play, so you couldn't trigger its Disrupt anymore.

If you choose any character, whatever character you choose first will be the first that opens a window of opportunity to trigger Infirmary's Disrupt ability. Choose the second character and you open a new window of opportunity, etc.

So what exactly is it that you disagree with?



#7 HilariousPete

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

.Zephyr. said:

you should be able to trigger it before Rifts effect even resolves, enabling you to save any MU characters, the order of cards destruction doesnt even matter here, as disrupts are triggered between initiation and resolution

Completely agree with that.

.Zephyr. said:

if its not your rift and controller chooses to destroy infirmary first disrupt has already altered the effect.

@jhaelen: Also had to reat it three times before I got it ;-) But Zephyr is right if you ignore the "if it's not your rift"-part. I can't see what the controllership of the Rift has to do with it. (A small nit-picking: The Infirmary doesn't alter the effect, it replaces it. But that's not important here.)

This is how I see what happens:

Player A has Dimensional Rift in play. Player B has a few Misk. Uni. characters and Infirmary.

  1. Player A initiates the Rift's Action. In 1b, the affected cards (all characters and supports in play) are determined. In 1e, the Rift is exhausted and sacrificed and 3 are paid.
  2. In the Disrupt slot, player B triggers the Infirmary for each of his M.U. characters. Their destruction is replaced with "take back into hand".
  3. The Rift's replaced Action is resolved. This means that for each M.U. character of B, "return to hand" is resolved instead of the destruction. The order doesn't matter here. Even if Infirmary would be chosen first, the Rift's effect has been replaced already.


#8 Danigral

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:31 AM

HilariousPete said:

.Zephyr. said:

you should be able to trigger it before Rifts effect even resolves, enabling you to save any MU characters, the order of cards destruction doesnt even matter here, as disrupts are triggered between initiation and resolution

Completely agree with that.

.Zephyr. said:

if its not your rift and controller chooses to destroy infirmary first disrupt has already altered the effect.

@jhaelen: Also had to reat it three times before I got it ;-) But Zephyr is right if you ignore the "if it's not your rift"-part. I can't see what the controllership of the Rift has to do with it. (A small nit-picking: The Infirmary doesn't alter the effect, it replaces it. But that's not important here.)

This is how I see what happens:

Player A has Dimensional Rift in play. Player B has a few Misk. Uni. characters and Infirmary.

  1. Player A initiates the Rift's Action. In 1b, the affected cards (all characters and supports in play) are determined. In 1e, the Rift is exhausted and sacrificed and 3 are paid.
  2. In the Disrupt slot, player B triggers the Infirmary for each of his M.U. characters. Their destruction is replaced with "take back into hand".
  3. The Rift's replaced Action is resolved. This means that for each M.U. character of B, "return to hand" is resolved instead of the destruction. The order doesn't matter here. Even if Infirmary would be chosen first, the Rift's effect has been replaced already.

I think we all agree that characters will return to your hand, but there is still some confusion on the timing, and I can see why it's important to get down the exact timing of this situation. I admit though that I am a little confused about what you're saying Pete, because I would have said that I was 99% sure that the Infirmary is untriggerable if it leaves play, because when something leaves play, it does so *immediately*, and the Disrupt: would not be in play anymore to trigger for the character being destroyed. This is especially the case because everything leaves play one at a time per the FAQ I quoted above. If the replacement effect of Infirmary isn't in play anymore, then there is nothing there to trigger for each instance of a character being destroyed.



#9 HilariousPete

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:36 AM

Danigral said:

when something leaves play, it does so *immediately*, and the Disrupt: would not be in play anymore to trigger for the character being destroyed.

Ah, I think the confusion lies here. Cards don't leave play immediately after triggering the Rift's effect. There's a small slot between the initiation and the resolution of an effect - the disrupt slot. So after the initiation, we know that a lot of cards (among them MU characters) will leave play in future. This knowledge satisifies the trigger condition for the Infirmary. After the Infirmary's effect is resolved, the resolution of the Rift's Action begins - now the characters+supports leave play, one at a time, with the selected characters being returned to hand instead of the discard pile.

It's the same with this example in the FAQ:

For example, if Darrin plays the triggered
ability on Slavering Gug (Core Set F124)
on Tommy’s Jack “Brass” Brady (Core Set
F61), Tommy may choose to use Jack “Brass”
Brady’s Disrupt: action, which would return
him to Tommy’s hand. Assuming both players
subsequently pass, the Slavering Gug’s ability
now resolves. However, since Jack “Brass”
Brady is no longer in play and is thus an illegal
target, the Slavering Gug’ s effect is ignored

 

Card texts so that you don't need to look them up too:

Slavering Gug: Action: Pay 4 to choose and wound a character.

Jack "Brass" Brady: Disrupt: Before a triggered ability resolves, return Jack "Brass" Brady to his owner's hand.

 



#10 Danigral

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

HilariousPete said:

Danigral said:

 

when something leaves play, it does so *immediately*, and the Disrupt: would not be in play anymore to trigger for the character being destroyed.

 

 

Ah, I think the confusion lies here. Cards don't leave play immediately after triggering the Rift's effect. There's a small slot between the initiation and the resolution of an effect - the disrupt slot. So after the initiation, we know that a lot of cards (among them MU characters) will leave play in future. This knowledge satisifies the trigger condition for the Infirmary. After the Infirmary's effect is resolved, the resolution of the Rift's Action begins - now the characters+supports leave play, one at a time, with the selected characters being returned to hand instead of the discard pile.

It's the same with this example in the FAQ:

For example, if Darrin plays the triggered
ability on Slavering Gug (Core Set F124)
on Tommy’s Jack “Brass” Brady (Core Set
F61), Tommy may choose to use Jack “Brass”
Brady’s Disrupt: action, which would return
him to Tommy’s hand. Assuming both players
subsequently pass, the Slavering Gug’s ability
now resolves. However, since Jack “Brass”
Brady is no longer in play and is thus an illegal
target, the Slavering Gug’ s effect is ignored

 

Card texts so that you don't need to look them up too:

Slavering Gug: Action: Pay 4 to choose and wound a character.

Jack "Brass" Brady: Disrupt: Before a triggered ability resolves, return Jack "Brass" Brady to his owner's hand.

 

Ahhhhhhh, [smacks head]. That makes total sense now. I was thinking of disrupts happening in the same step as the resolution, but it clearly shows in the FAQ that they are separate steps :

 

1. Framework Action is initiated.
2. Disrupts
3. Framework Action is executed
 
And now it makes complete sense that all disrupts (should be) worded as "would be".
 
Thanks, Pete.


#11 .Zephyr.

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

I disagree that its clear - its quite complicated IMO as this discussion shows.

The case when your opponent control rift is very intersting, also first question is about rift and infirmary being controlled by different players…

My main point was this timing structure detail - disrupts between initiation and resolution. I guess posting FAQ section header is not enough for some ppl… [guess im bad at reading]

About: "if its not your rift and controller chooses to destroy infirmary first disrupt has already altered the effect." i need to use more periods and commas:

"If its not your rift. [Rifts] Controller chooses to destroy infirmary first. [Infirmary's] Disrupt has already altered the effect [of Rifft so its too late]"

But this FAQ disrupt timing might be overriden if designer intends this interaction to behave differently. Maybe each card destruction having its own initiation, disrupt, resolution sequence or something. This contradicts FAQ guidelines a bit, but sometimes such rulings are made for some less common effects. So untill you ask designer you never know…

[edit]

Ok, i was quite sure player triggering an effect chooses, not controller of said cards… This is wierd IMO as there is still a question of the exact order of characters leaving play. Whos characters get destroyed first? Can other side react? Is it one from one side then one from other? I cant find a case where it would matter now, but such stuff often starts being a problem with introduction of new cards.

Ok got one:

Rift + forgotten shoggoth with Infernal obsession - attaching something to shoggoth would require blanking his text but it could be done i think.
(unless cannot have attachments does count after getting text back, not 100% sure here but i think its like invulnerability and dmg, you cant get one, but if you have it already it stays)

When Obsession is destroyed shoggoth will change sides during resolution of effect and might change other players options :P … idont remeber how was Rift vs Forgotten Shoggoth ruled, anyone remembers?



#12 jhaelen

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:29 PM

HilariousPete said:

This is how I see what happens:

Player A has Dimensional Rift in play. Player B has a few Misk. Uni. characters and Infirmary.

  1. Player A initiates the Rift's Action. In 1b, the affected cards (all characters and supports in play) are determined. In 1e, the Rift is exhausted and sacrificed and 3 are paid.
  2. In the Disrupt slot, player B triggers the Infirmary for each of his M.U. characters. Their destruction is replaced with "take back into hand".
  3. The Rift's replaced Action is resolved. This means that for each M.U. character of B, "return to hand" is resolved instead of the destruction. The order doesn't matter here. Even if Infirmary would be chosen first, the Rift's effect has been replaced already.

Ah, I see! This is indeed correct.

My interpretation was alternating between Steps 2 and 3 which is apparently not correct according to the FAQ timing rules.

@Zephyr:

I think you'd first have to show how someone managed to attach Infernal Obsession to Forgotten Shoggoth in the first place. This should be very hard to do and probably only happens when the stars are right…

From the top of my head I recall two ways to blank Forgotten Shoggoth's text box:

1) Richard Upton Pickman (Core)

2) Primal Fear

Both only blank the text box for a single phase, but if you trigger them in your operations phase you could then potentially play Infernal Obsession. 2) is even more difficult to do since you'd first have to get rid of the Shoggoth's Terror icon…

Since we've had a reversal of rules in the FAQs, attachments now only check if they're legal when attaching them, not afterwards, so I suppose you could trigger Dimensional Rift at some later point rather being forced to do it in the same phase.

Anyway, if an effect affects both players, doesn't the active player choose if he or the defending player resolves it first?



#13 HilariousPete

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:37 AM

.Zephyr. said:

"If its not your rift. [Rifts] Controller chooses to destroy infirmary first. [Infirmary's] Disrupt has already altered the effect [of Rifft so its too late]"

I think/hope I understand now. You wanted to say that even if the Infirmary is destroyed first (which you think will happen if the Rift's controller is different from the Infirmary's controller), it doesn't matter, since the effect has already been replaced?

.Zephyr. said:

Maybe each card destruction having its own initiation, disrupt, resolution sequence or something. This contradicts FAQ guidelines a bit

No, I don't think so either. The Rift has 1 action, so the timing structure is run once, not one time for each affected card.

.Zephyr. said:

Ok, i was quite sure player triggering an effect chooses, not controller of said cards… This is wierd IMO as there is still a question of the exact order of characters leaving play. Whos characters get destroyed first? Can other side react? Is it one from one side then one from other? I cant find a case where it would matter now, but such stuff often starts being a problem with introduction of new cards.

Intuitively I also thought that the active player decides the order. But the FAQ Danigral stated tells us "no". The controller decides the order (I think the controller of cards leaving play is meant, but I'm not sure). So Player A decides the order in which his cards leave play, and player B decides the order in which B's cards leave play. But I can't tell which "packet of cards" leaves play first… I'd guess the active player decides, but that's a pure guess. You need to ask someone else. Usually it also doesn't matter. The case with Shoggoth+Obsession is extremely rare, perhaps not even possible (see my answer to jhaelen). Regarding reacting: Sure they can. But Responses come later, after the Rift's Action is resolved and each card has left play.

.Zephyr. said:

Ok got one:

Rift + forgotten shoggoth with Infernal obsession - attaching something to shoggoth would require blanking his text but it could be done i think.
(unless cannot have attachments does count after getting text back, not 100% sure here but i think its like invulnerability and dmg, you cant get one, but if you have it already it stays)

When Obsession is destroyed shoggoth will change sides during resolution of effect and might change other players options :P … idont remeber how was Rift vs Forgotten Shoggoth ruled, anyone remembers?

Ok this is really complicted and seldom now ;-) I just assume the Obsession+Shoggoth thing were possible. I remember the discussion about the Shoggoth, I also took part in it ;-) The Shoggoths's second passive is an altering effect. Passive altering effects are "faster" than Disrupts: The alteration takes place during initiation of the altered effect.

If a passive ability would alter an
action as it is being initiated, the passive
is first resolved on the action, which now
altered, is initiated. A Disrupt triggered,
disrupts the altered action not the action
before the passive is applied.

So if player A controls the Rift and the Shoggoth via Infernal Obsession, all his cards (with the exception of the Shoggoth) will be put underneath his deck, and his opponent's will go to the discard pile. The order of the cards leaving play doesn't matter, since the alteration already took place during initiation. Even if the Shoggoth were the first character to leave play, the alteration has been done already. (The Shoggoth is an exception and doesn't go underneath the deck of player A, because his effect doesn't apply to himself at all - if a card changed control and leaves play, it will be returned to its owner's discard pile, FAQ 1.13)

If player A were stupid enough to let the Obsession leave play before the Shoggoth, I think the Shoggoth would switch sides and go to B, and will leave play on his side. I don't think the Shoggoth will go underneath the deck of player B then (because the effect has already been altered long ago, and only for player A…)

At least that's what I think. To be sure, you should submit a rules question ;-)



#14 HilariousPete

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:37 AM

jhaelen said:

I think you'd first have to show how someone managed to attach Infernal Obsession to Forgotten Shoggoth in the first place. This should be very hard to do and probably only happens when the stars are right…

Hehe, yes

 

jhaelen said:

Since we've had a reversal of rules in the FAQs, attachments now only check if they're legal when attaching them, not afterwards, so I suppose you could trigger Dimensional Rift at some later point rather being forced to do it in the same phase.

That's right. But I'm not sure if this applies to the Shoggoth, too. Usually, the attachments state "attach to X" and such play restrictions are only checked once, when the attachment is played. With the Shoggoth, things are complicated. I think "Cards cannot be attached to FS" is not a play restriction as it is defined in the FAQ:

(2.33) Attachments
Cards with the Attachment subtype
are followed by the term in the card
text box “Attach to X.” (For example,
attach to a character you control). This
term is not a card effect, but rather
an additional requirement to play the
card. …
An attachment only checks the
requirements for attaching it when
the card enters play.

Furthermore "Cards cannot be attached to FS" is ambiguous in English. One meaning is that the act of attaching a card is forbidden (-> 1 single point in timeline). The other meaning is, that the state of a card being attached to the Shoggoth is forbidden (-> all the time). With the former, things are just like you say, and Infernal Obsession will stay on the Shoggoth after he gains his textbox back. In the latter case, the Obsession will fall off as soon as the Shoggoth has his textbox again. I have no idea what the designers intended ;-) But I'd guess that it's the latter one, just to prevent such strange constellations.



#15 Danigral

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

Poor kamacausey thought he was asking a simple question. Talk about a can of worms. lol.



#16 Danigral

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:47 AM

HilariousPete said:

Furthermore "Cards cannot be attached to FS" is ambiguous in English. One meaning is that the act of attaching a card is forbidden (-> 1 single point in timeline). The other meaning is, that the state of a card being attached to the Shoggoth is forbidden (-> all the time). With the former, things are just like you say, and Infernal Obsession will stay on the Shoggoth after he gains his textbox back. In the latter case, the Obsession will fall off as soon as the Shoggoth has his textbox again. I have no idea what the designers intended ;-) But I'd guess that it's the latter one, just to prevent such strange constellations.

I think they changed this, because the attachments section in the FAQ says that play restrictions for attachments are checked only when playing the attachment. So I think it would stay on.



#17 HilariousPete

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

Danigral said:

Poor kamacausey thought he was asking a simple question. Talk about a can of worms. lol.

Haha indeed

Danigral said:

HilariousPete said:

 

Furthermore "Cards cannot be attached to FS" is ambiguous in English. One meaning is that the act of attaching a card is forbidden (-> 1 single point in timeline). The other meaning is, that the state of a card being attached to the Shoggoth is forbidden (-> all the time). With the former, things are just like you say, and Infernal Obsession will stay on the Shoggoth after he gains his textbox back. In the latter case, the Obsession will fall off as soon as the Shoggoth has his textbox again. I have no idea what the designers intended ;-) But I'd guess that it's the latter one, just to prevent such strange constellations.

 

 

I think they changed this, because the attachments section in the FAQ says that play restrictions for attachments are checked only when playing the attachment. So I think it would stay on.

Sorry for the long delay…
It's true what you say, but that FAQ section deals with texts like "attach to X" printed on the attachment itself - but the text from the Shoggoth is formulated in a completely different way, and it's on the target, not on the attachment. So I think the FAQ section about play requirement doesn't apply here at all.

From a very simple point of view, what does the Shoggoth's text say? No attachments on the Shoggoth. And the passive just states this: Cards cannot be attached to the Shoggoth. (There's still the ambiguity if this text refers to the act of attaching or the state of being attached, but the more I think about it, I'd say it's the latter one. So the passive is "always on" (unless blanked) and forbids attachment cards on the Shoggoth. If it is unblanked later, it is "on" again and leads to the discarding of the attachment.)



#18 jhaelen

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:08 PM

I agree that Forgotten Shoggoth's ability is a slightly different case from the usual conditions on attaching cards and 'cannot' is a pretty strong term. But the wording isn't as clear cut as it could be. Imho, the interpretation that is closest to the wording is that it doesn't care about cards that are already attached to it. The intention, though, may well have been different. Time to get an official answer, I guess? complice (question sent…)



#19 jhaelen

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:39 AM

And Damon's answer's in:

Rule Question:
Assuming I've managed to attach a card to 'Forgotten Shoggoth' by temporarily blanking its text box, what happens to the attachment after the text box is no longer blanked?

Answer:

They are discarded. Cannot is absolute.

 



#20 HilariousPete

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:16 AM

Good to know. Thx for sharing!






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