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Assault missile vs. Determination


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#1 Sprolly G

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:01 AM

My girlfriend shot an assault missile at Biggs and scored a crit [with vader]. I have determination and canceled out the crit all together (meaning my shields were taken out) . Luke was on his last limb and only needed 1 more hit and was at range 1. We ruled Luke out of the game, but we weren't sure and rolled on it. She wins the roll (the dice never lie) and we took Luke out. Biggs had a stealth device upgrade and being that the determination canceled out the crit, we rolled on it and I won this time (the dice never lie…), so I kept the upgrade. Any thoughts?


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#2 jetsetter

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

If I understand Determination right, the CRIT is only discarded if it is a Pilot card, others still apply. So if there were no other HITS,  you would have kept stealth, but you indicated you had no shields..so you had taken a hit before ( no stealth anyways)? Or did you hit asteroids or bombs (stealth still active)?



#3 dbmeboy

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:55 AM

Determination discards certain critical damage cards, but it does not change the face that the ship was hit.  No matter what weapon was involved, it will still cause the discard of Stealth Device.  In the case of Assault Missile, it will also still do the "splash damage" even if no damage ended up being done to Biggs.

Remember, taking damage =/= being hit and being hit does not always imply taking damage.



#4 Sprolly G

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

jetsetter said:

If I understand Determination right, the CRIT is only discarded if it is a Pilot card, others still apply. So if there were no other HITS,  you would have kept stealth, but you indicated you had no shields..so you had taken a hit before ( no stealth anyways)? Or did you hit asteroids or bombs (stealth still active)?

She had taken out my shields on a previous round without hitting the hull.


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#5 Sprolly G

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

dbmeboy said:

Determination discards certain critical damage cards, but it does not change the face that the ship was hit.  No matter what weapon was involved, it will still cause the discard of Stealth Device.  In the case of Assault Missile, it will also still do the "splash damage" even if no damage ended up being done to Biggs.

Remember, taking damage =/= being hit and being hit does not always imply taking damage.

I see what you're saying and I guess that if I lost Skywalker, then I should have also lost the upgrade in that scenario. The 'discard' portion of that card is deceiving and we decided to roll on it. That's the first time determination ever came through for me, and it was a confusing one…When in doubt, roll on it.


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#6 ziggy2000

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

Sprolly G said:

jetsetter said:

 

If I understand Determination right, the CRIT is only discarded if it is a Pilot card, others still apply. So if there were no other HITS,  you would have kept stealth, but you indicated you had no shields..so you had taken a hit before ( no stealth anyways)? Or did you hit asteroids or bombs (stealth still active)?

 

 

She had taken out my shields on a previous round without hitting the hull.

Whether the damage was absorbed by shields or taken as hull damage does not matter - if your ship was HIT (as defined on page 12 of the core rules) your Stealth Device should have been removed - and it sounds like this should have happened in a previous round, since you say shields were removed then. This would have not affected the Determination ability to discard the crit if it was a Pilot crit. And Luke, if he only had 1 hull left, would have been taken out by the "splash" damage from the Assault missiles.

I hope I have this right. It's been a long day.

 



#7 Sprolly G

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

ziggy2000 said:

Sprolly G said:

 

jetsetter said:

 

If I understand Determination right, the CRIT is only discarded if it is a Pilot card, others still apply. So if there were no other HITS,  you would have kept stealth, but you indicated you had no shields..so you had taken a hit before ( no stealth anyways)? Or did you hit asteroids or bombs (stealth still active)?

 

 

She had taken out my shields on a previous round without hitting the hull.

 

 

Whether the damage was absorbed by shields or taken as hull damage does not matter - if your ship was HIT (as defined on page 12 of the core rules) your Stealth Device should have been removed - and it sounds like this should have happened in a previous round, since you say shields were removed then. This would have not affected the Determination ability to discard the crit if it was a Pilot crit. And Luke, if he only had 1 hull left, would have been taken out by the "splash" damage from the Assault missiles.

I hope I have this right. It's been a long day.

 

Hmm..We just assumed that losing the stealth upgrade starts when you take hull damage..


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#8 dbmeboy

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

Sprolly G said:

Hmm..We just assumed that losing the stealth upgrade starts when you take hull damage..

Nope, as per the card itself you lose the Stealth Device when you are "hit."  There are a handful of ways that you could be "hit" and not take any damage, shields or otherwise, but it still counts as being hit.



#9 Sprolly G

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

…the stealth upgrade isn't looking so awesome now…


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#10 Cptnhalfbeard

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:05 PM

Well, that's just it, isn't it?  The X-wing is not a naturally stelathy ship, so giving it stealth isn't as awesome.  Give an X-wing R2-F2 and Stealth, now suddenly the X-wing can have 4 defence dice.  Not too shabby, but still not amazing since you need to use your action to get the 4 dice.  I primarily use stealth with A-wings and TIEs.



#11 Buhallin

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

It's still a pretty good upgrade.  As the captain says though, you have to be aware of what you're putting it on.

I recently covered the Stealth Device in my rules blog, you might find it helpful:

http://teamcovenant....stealth-device/

Shameless plug done now :)



#12 Sprolly G

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:06 PM

Buhallin said:

It's still a pretty good upgrade.  As the captain says though, you have to be aware of what you're putting it on.

I recently covered the Stealth Device in my rules blog, you might find it helpful:

http://teamcovenant....stealth-device/

Shameless plug done now :)

That's a pretty helpful bit of information. My girlfriend and I basically slapped [our own] foreheads after reading and realizing that we ran the mod wrong that whole time…


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#13 Vronk

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:47 PM

Funny how nobody mentioned that Biggs has no Elite Pilot Talent slot and therefore can not take Determination at all.



#14 dbmeboy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:09 PM

Vronk said:

Funny how nobody mentioned that Biggs has no Elite Pilot Talent slot and therefore can not take Determination at all.

… That is also true… That's what we get for concentrating on the rules question and not the rest of the scenario with it.



#15 Sprolly G

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:19 PM

Vronk said:

Funny how nobody mentioned that Biggs has no Elite Pilot Talent slot and therefore can not take Determination at all.

yeah, we realized that since the start of the post. This is not a good drinking game, for the record…


Rebels:
5 X-Wing's; 4 Y-Wing's; 4 A-Wing's; 2 B-wing's; 1 HWK-290; 1 YT-1300
Empire:
8 Tie Fighter's; 5 Tie Interceptor's; 4 Tie Advanced; 2 Tie Bomber's; 1 Lambda; 1 Firespray


#16 zathras23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:28 PM

dbmeboy said:

Sprolly G said:

 

Hmm..We just assumed that losing the stealth upgrade starts when you take hull damage..

 

 

Nope, as per the card itself you lose the Stealth Device when you are "hit."  There are a handful of ways that you could be "hit" and not take any damage, shields or otherwise, but it still counts as being hit.

Look at the Stealth Device card again. It says you lose the Stealth Device when you are Hit by an Attack. Running into an asteroid is not an attack, Neither is getting caught in the area of effect of an Assault Missile. The only way you can lose the Stealth Device is to be a target of an attack where your opponent rolls the red dice and you roll the green dice and be hit after the results of the dice are finalized.



#17 Buhallin

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:34 AM

zathras23 said:

dbmeboy said:

Nope, as per the card itself you lose the Stealth Device when you are "hit."  There are a handful of ways that you could be "hit" and not take any damage, shields or otherwise, but it still counts as being hit.

------------------------------------------------

Look at the Stealth Device card again. It says you lose the Stealth Device when you are Hit by an Attack. Running into an asteroid is not an attack, Neither is getting caught in the area of effect of an Assault Missile. The only way you can lose the Stealth Device is to be a target of an attack where your opponent rolls the red dice and you roll the green dice and be hit after the results of the dice are finalized.

Pretty sure dbmeboy knows that :)  I think he was referring to effects such as Draw Their Fire:

- Ship A has Stealth Device, and an attack against it has one uncanceled {Critical Hit}
- Ship B uses Draw Their Fire
- Ship B takes the {Critical Hit} result, and the damage for it
- Ship A has taken no damage, but was still "hit" and therefore loses its Stealth Device

 



#18 dbmeboy

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM

I was just assuming he was actually responding to the person I had quoted, as nothing in his post contradicted anything I had said. :-)

#19 zathras23

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

Buhallin said:

zathras23 said:

 

dbmeboy said:

Nope, as per the card itself you lose the Stealth Device when you are "hit."  There are a handful of ways that you could be "hit" and not take any damage, shields or otherwise, but it still counts as being hit.

------------------------------------------------

Look at the Stealth Device card again. It says you lose the Stealth Device when you are Hit by an Attack. Running into an asteroid is not an attack, Neither is getting caught in the area of effect of an Assault Missile. The only way you can lose the Stealth Device is to be a target of an attack where your opponent rolls the red dice and you roll the green dice and be hit after the results of the dice are finalized.

 

 

Pretty sure dbmeboy knows that :)  I think he was referring to effects such as Draw Their Fire:

- Ship A has Stealth Device, and an attack against it has one uncanceled {Critical Hit}
- Ship B uses Draw Their Fire
- Ship B takes the {Critical Hit} result, and the damage for it
- Ship A has taken no damage, but was still "hit" and therefore loses its Stealth Device

 

Interesting…..the rules, as written, would have you lose the Stealth Device. However I wonder if the intent of the Stealth Device rule is if you nullify all of the hits through any means you still keep it. Also, looking at the wording of the Draw Their Fire upgrade card, I think that Ship A in the above example does not take the hit that is moved to Ship B:

Draw Their Fire: When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncancelled Critical results instead of the target ship.

So, reading the text of the card, the original target of the attack does not suffer the effects of the hit at all…no damage because there is no hit suffered and no loss of the Stealth Device because of it because Ship B is the one that is hit by the crit moved by the Draw Their Fire card and not Ship A.



#20 KineticOperator

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

You are overthinking it.

The rulebook is actually quite clear.  On page 12, under "6. Compare Results"

"If there is at least one uncancelled (hit) or (crit) remaining, the defender is considered hit (see page 13)."

Page 13 follows up under the section "7. Deal Damage".  "During this step, hit ships suffer damage.."

If your ship is attacked and suffers a (hit) or (crit) that isn't cancelled, it is hit.  No question.  That occurs during Step 6 "Compare Results".  Damage and effects are dealt with at a later stage, Step 7 "Deal Damage".  So, in your example:

1 - If the defending ship suffers a (hit) or (crit) it will lose the Stealth Device, regardless of whether or not the effects of that hit are cancelled.  Only after a ship has already been hit will Determination and/or Draw Their Fire come into play, which is too late to save your stealth device.

2 - A nearby ship is "hit", and your ship with a stealth device uses Draw Their Fire to take the effects of the Critical.  Regardless of what damage may occur, your ship with the Stealth Device was not hit and will not lose the Stealth Device.

3 - A nearby ship is hit with an Assault Missile.  All nearby ships suffer 1 damage, including your ship with the Stealth Device.  However, since being hit is a very specific circumstance, you do not lose the Stealth Device.  Your ship was never hit, it recieved damage in some other way.

4 - A ship with a Stealth Device flies over an asteroid and takes damage.  Again, the ship was not hit so regardless of damage your Stealth Device will remain intact.

It is a little counterintuitive because in our minds eye we imagine asteroids "hitting" the ship, or shrapnel "hitting" the ship.  It makes more sense when you look at an effect like Daredevil.  It is easier to see how having your ship take damage does not necessarily mean the enemy has discovered a way to "see through" your Stealth.






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