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Tackling re-rolls from several upgrade cards


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#1 Indalecio

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

We had a situation earlier today  and didn't know for sure how to resolve it.

Team A had a player make a two-dices tackle against a player from Team B and rolled both Target Down and Tackler Down. Team B wanted to play an upgrade card in response to force Team A to re-roll all dices, but the Dark Elves team (Team C) had the Deathlace upgrade making both results apply.

How do both cards interact with each other? Can both co-exist and are resolved sequentially? Any help appreciated.



#2 Indalecio

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:51 AM

Nobody?

Alright, I think the easiest way to deal with this is to treat this logically. Let us say that:

- A player from Team A  tackles a player from Team B with two dices.

- Team A has the ability to re-roll a tackling attempt from one of his players.

- Team B has the ability to make a player re-roll a tackling attempt against one of his players.

- Team C has Deathlace, making both tackling results apply (looking for both players being tackled/injured obviously).

I think Team C can only act last, since he is not involved in the tackling attempt. Both Team A and B should have priority for changing the outcome of the tackling attempt. Team C should only pick up the final tackling result.

Team A rolls the dices. If he´s happy with the result, then Team B has the ability to use his upgrade card to force a re-roll, in which case Team A can follow up by using his own upgrade. If he´s not happy then he may use his upgrade directly, after which Team B has the option to use his own upgrade to force a re-roll. Only after that, Team C has the capability to use Deathlace to apply both results.

How about that?

I feel like there should be rules making these kind of situations clear.



#3 Jutlander

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:35 PM

They are all responses, right?

Then you have to respond to something and the order of things depend on what you respond to.


Let us say that my Dark Elf Blitzer tries to tackle a Skaven Gutter Runner.

Scenario 1:

Event 1: The Dark Elf rolls an [Explosion] and an [Explosion].

Event 2: In response to Event 1, the Skaven chooses to use Dodge, forcing the Dark Elf the re-roll.

Event 3: The Dark Elf rolls an [Explosion] and an [Explosion].

Event 4: In response to Event 3, the Dark Elf uses Deathlace applying the results of both dice, effectively injuring the Skaven.

Scenario 2:

Event 1: The Dark Elf rolls an [Explosion] and an [Explosion].

Event 2: In response to Event 1, the Dark Elf chooses to use Deathlace, effectively injuring the Skaven.

Event 3: In response to Event 2, the Skaven chooses to use Dodge, nullifying the tackle attempt and forcing the Dark Elf the re-roll.

Event 4: Again, the Dark Elf rolls an [Explosion] and an [Explosion]. But as he has already used his Deathlace, the Skaven is only downed.


As for your example, I am not sure you can use Deathlace in a tackle attempt that you are not involved in yourself, but the wording on the card may prove me wrong.

 



#4 Indalecio

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:56 PM

Well nothing on Deathlace says that it has to be one of your players involved in the tackling attempt:

"Response: Exhaust this card after any manager rolls 2 dice during a tackle attempt to apply both results. Ignore all downed skills on players that become downed as a result of this effect".

The reference on the rules book saying that cards only interact with players at the same matchup is only made for Player Cards Abilities, not upgrade cards. There are other upgrade cards you can play at others' matchups. So my conclusion is that Deathlace can be used for any tackle attempt in any match-up. I´m fairly confident about that because most cards would state "where you have at least one player commited to this matchup" otherwise.

On another note, I really don't know if we can assume two tackling successes can be applied (tackling+injuring) as a result of applying both results. It would make sense actually, but wouldn't this deserve a mention on the Deathlace card or in the rules book? A confirmation of this is required.

Your scenario 2 makes very little sense to me to be honest, I don't find it logical at all. That's why I think timing rules as for when playing response cards is required. To me Deathlace should be applied on the final dice result, not before. It makes it really weird otherwise. And since the Dark Elves using Deathlace might not even be involved in the tackle attempt I think they should not interact until both involved teams have sorted their re-rolls.

How do we ask the dev team for clarification? Are they reading these forums?



#5 Jutlander

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:34 AM

Indalecio said:

Your scenario 2 makes very little sense to me to be honest, I don't find it logical at all.

This surprises me. It makes perfect sense to me and my friends.

Oh well.



#6 Indalecio

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:22 PM

Jutlander said:

 

Indalecio said:

Your scenario 2 makes very little sense to me to be honest, I don't find it logical at all.

 

This surprises me. It makes perfect sense to me and my friends.

Oh well.

 

 

Did I offend you or something? I was just being sceptical about this scenario because you are illustrating the use of Deathlace before the final tackle results. What "doesn't make sense" (to me and my friends, lol) is that Deathlace states that you "apply both results", wich is the execution of the tackling roll, for us at that stage you cannot respond by using Dodge or any upgrade card forcing you to re-roll because it feels like it's too late in the resolution of this tackle. Which is why we believe Deathlace should be applied on the final tackle result AFTER the eventual use of other response upgrade cards or abilities like Dodge.

Also you seem to imply that the use of Dodge negates Deathlace when applied after it. I could go as far as saying that following that logic I would apply both tackle dices and then re-roll the tackle attempt due to Dodge and apply the final result. I mean, there is somthing wrong about that obviously.

My conclusion, which is worth what it's worth since we lack information about this type of play, is that it makes best sense to use Deathlace on the final tackling result. Your opponent can choose to use Dodge after you roll the dices, then once everybody is clear you can apply Deathlace. Then we can safely move on and cover the case when the player with Deathlace is not involved in the tackle attempt, because then the timing of the response makes no difference, it has to be applied on the final results.

Hope none of this was offensive, I´m just hoping for a discussion but I also respect the fact we have different views. I´m a bit surprised you find yours logical but again we may interprete the rules differently.



#7 DaBoss

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:08 PM


lso you seem to imply that the use of Dodge negates Deathlace when applied after it.


 


The rules do say that when two responces contridict, the second one will overide the first.



#8 Indalecio

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

DaBoss said:

The rules do say that when two responces contridict, the second one will overide the first.

True, but ´m not entirely sure Deathlace and Dodge "contradict" each other (as for asking somthing to happen in two incompatible ways), to me the issue is all about timing,which I was trying to highlight earlier in this thread.



#9 Prepare for War

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:11 AM

The language definitely isn't clear. One could even argue that Deathlace is resolved immediately on it being played, and then a dodge after it creates a second set of results that must then be applied. I wouldn't accept this, of course, but it could be argued. Its not even explicit that Deathlace REPLACES the normal resolution of block dice, and it could be read that the effect happens in addition to it.

Not that I believe that was the intention.

I'd say its not clear at all, but my inclination would be:

1) First, the tackler gets to reroll if he wants. Or he declines to.

2) The dodger gets to reroll if he wants. Or he declines to.

3) Then if the tackler hasn't used his reroll, he can now call to reroll.

4) Then if the dodger still hasn't used his rerolls, he can now call to reroll.

5) The guy with Deathlace then gets a chance to use Deathlace, and there's no more rerolls after that.

 

I can't cite any rules that say this is the case, this is just the way I'd play it.



#10 savijmuhdrox

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:14 PM

looking at the wording of dodge and deathlace… i don't see why deathlace would be negated by dodge.

if one applied deathlace first; the opponent can choose to use dodge; but deathlace would still apply to the new roll. The requirement for deathlace is simply "when two dice are being used"



#11 Indalecio

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

Okay so I ended up asking the design team (I just wasn't aware of how to to it before) and I´m glad to share the clarification in regards to Deathlace. 

 

1- The Dark Elves do not need to be involved at the matchup where the tackle is happening. 

"[…] Deathlace can be used to modify the dice of managers even at match ups where the Dark Elves are not present. That is why it says "any manager""

 

2- Deathlace is resolved based on the final dice result.

"[…] the intent is for Deathlace to occur after the final dice result. That would thus include any other modifications to the roll, like Dodge."

 

3- Deathlace can be played anytime during the tackling sequence following the player turn order (first player then clockwise order) BUT its resolution - as opposed to announcing Deathlace is being played -  occurs according to point #2 above. 

"Yes, according to the rules structure, I suppose it is possible to declare Deathlace before using Dodge but not use its effect until after using Dodge."

It means that if I play after the tackling team but before the tackled team then I can make use of Deathlace before the tackled team attempts to Dodge.

 

4- Two "BOOM" symbols on the final tackle result with Deathlace involved implies the player is both downed and injured.

"two "target down" results rolled in conjunction with the Deathlace ability would result in the tackled player being downed and then injured"

 

Some further clarification was then provided about upgrades in general:

"I also would like to point out that when Team Upgrade abilities (like Deathlace) conflict with other abilities occurring during the same phase (like Dodge), managers should resolve them in turn order starting with the manager who currently holds the golden coin. So if one manager wanted to use Dodge and another wanted to use Deathlace, the manager highest in turn order (closest to the manager with the golden coin) would use theirs first. Then, the other manager would have the opportunity to reroll again using his ability"

It's quite interesting because it means I can also "pass" my turn and not use Deathlace and let Dodge happen, then announce Deathlace. That's probably what I would do anyway since I wouldn't waste it on bad tackling roll (final result), I need to know what comes after Dodge I guess.



#12 Prepare for War

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

Excellent clarifications, thanks!

I guess that makes it pretty much explicit that the "active player first" thing applies to all cards, not just to player cards. Its also nice to know that you get the chance to decline to use a card, but then to use it after other people have done things.

I wonder though - if the players after you decline to use effects, do you still get that opportunity:

 

Me (active player): I'll pass. Are you using Dodge?

Him: No

Me: In that case I'll use Deathlace now.

Him: Ok, then I'll use Dodge now.

 

Does that work? In my mind, I can see problems with this, and for flow of the game and avoiding those "if you do i do" moments, I'd say that if everyone passes, then that step ends, and no more effects can be triggered.



#13 Indalecio

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:43 AM

My understanding is that the turn order is only required when several managers intend to play a card at the same time in response to something happening. As a MTG player I have the [bad] tendency to seek for an explanation using some form of  "priority" sequence when people take initiative by turn and either play or pass, but I don't think that's what happens here at all. I don't think you really "pass" in the scenario you´re describing, I think you want the manager of the team being tackled to use Dodge (why wouldn't he use it anyway assuming the tackling roll was succesfull) and then announce the use of Deathlace if the final dice result is interesting enough for you to apply both dices.

There is no real scenario when you wouldn't use Dodge because of Deathlace being played. If the roll shows two crosses then there is no point using Dodge. If the roll shows one blank and one cross then there is no point using Dodge and no point either using Deathlace. If the roll shows at least one succesful tackle (explosion symbol) then there is no excuse for not re-rolling with Dodge regardless of Deathlace.

So to summarize my view, there should never be a case when the Dodge player makes his decision to play Dodge rely on the decision for the Dark Elves to play Deathlace.



#14 Prepare for War

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:43 PM

Sure there is:

Dark Elf Lineman player blocks a 3 Star Power player with Dodge (using Tackling Coach). (say theoretical situation where the 3 Star Power player has the ball, and the ball is going to win him a critical small number of fan flags or whatever, and just adding a lineman isn't going to even things).

Dice come up with a tackle symbol and an X.

Defending player is able to have the X be the result, so is happy with that.

Dark Elf declares Deathlace so it becomes "both down".

Dodge is activated to try to get rid of that X.

 

 



#15 savijmuhdrox

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:14 PM

Dodge would be activated to try and get rid of the Tackle symbol. And i dont think it would be smart, because deathlace would still apply on the reroll.. and the odds of getting X again arent that good.

 

 



#16 Indalecio

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:06 AM

This dice result is lovely for Deathlace as both players would be downed as a result of it. As the defending team I´m not sure I wouldn't re-roll this result though, since I would lose more star power at the matchup than my opponent (remember, it was 2 dices against the tackling manager). But that's in a vacuum, I can agree there might be situations when I wouldn't want to risk a re-roll with Dodge and stay happy with the "both downed" result - Deathlace in the equation or not. 

But in all cases, I don't see the problem, because regardless of when managers announce the use of Dodge or Deathlace, the resolution is still timed according to the above clarifications, e.g. Deathlace last based on the final roll. There is no "play or pass" in my understanding of the rules, so I could wait for the defending player to announce Dodge and respond to it. Or, I could announce Deathlace straight away and the defender manager would respond by requesting a Dodge free-roll. In both cases, Dodge occurs first then Deathlace applies on the final result. So there is no "loop" of any kind in my mind. There is never any conflict between Dodge and Deathlace as I understood it.

 



#17 Prepare for War

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:37 AM

The loop occurs on an "if you do, I do, circumstance."

So in the aforementioned example, the Dodge player may only want to Dodge if Deathlace is declared. Thats intuitive.

But the Deathlace player may also want to say "I'll only use Deathlace if you decline to dodge."

As in:

"I'll use dodge if you use deathlace."

"I'll use deathlace if you don't use dodge."

Unless there's a stop point to passing priority defined, the loop can go round ad infinitum.



#18 Indalecio

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:54 AM

"I'll use dodge if you use deathlace."

"I'll use deathlace if you don't use dodge."

Players may say whatever they want to each other, but that's not quite a rules point. The Dodge player has the upper hand in the situation your´re describing and just needs to sit back and wait for the Deathlace manager to make his decision, and respond (or not) in consequence. The Deathlace manager should realize that the Dodge player will respond to Deathlace, so it becomes a decision as for which situation is most beneficial between letting it go and applying the original tackling result, or play Deathlace but run the risk that Dodge will change the deal completely.

You can't really get stuck on a verbal agreement, this is a game of responses. I hope this makes it clearer as for why I don't think there is no problem at all with this situation.



#19 savijmuhdrox

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

Prepare for War said:

…But the Deathlace player may also want to say "I'll only use Deathlace if you decline to dodge."

As in:

"I'll use dodge if you use deathlace."

"I'll use deathlace if you don't use dodge."

Unless there's a stop point to passing priority defined, the loop can go round ad infinitum.

 

But the Deathlace player can't expect that to hold water. The Dodge player can always decide to Dodge in response to the declaration of Deathlace being played. It's also exceedingly rare where such a case will occur.

You'd have to have a case where the downing of the Dodge player doesn't affect the outcome of the match, but the injuring does.. (since most players would call for Dodge regardless)

But IMHO, once you declare Deathlace, the Dodge player could declare Dodge.. and on the re-roll Deathlace would STILL apply… so you'd have to be careful since you might roll an X and really screw things up.






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