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Sith Holocron is a Sith Black Lotus.


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#1 GongShowHost

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

Arguably the most powerful card in the history of Magic the Gathering is Black Lotus. The only functional difference between Black Lotus and Sith Holocron is that it can only "generate" Sith resources. Add the Executor and Aggression to the set and the Objective itself better have a harsh drawback to justify these absurdly powerful cards. I also don't like the irony that Heroic Sacrifice, which depicts the Executor's downfall, only serves to help the card depicting the Executor.

#2 GongShowHost

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

I should add that Aggression is deceptively powerful. Given the current build of Sith, the three cards from this set we have seen fit in perfectly, likely replacing the Counsel of the Sith objective set. Executor may be difficult to play still, but it is an excellent edge card if you can't play it fast enough. Vader and Palpatine can still do most of the leg work while carefully timed play of Aggression could yield some killer results.

#3 Jedi_Knight

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:13 PM

My first thought was: "Oh, I finally get my Dark Ritual back!".

But Black Lotus is more to the theme of the card itself, I agree.



#4 JMCB

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:25 PM

You wouldn't replace Council of the Sith - it's one of the best Sith objectives, and it would ensure that you go through your deck finding the Sith Holocrons and Executors. With 2 Council, 2 Fall of the Jedi, and possibly Recon. Mission, you should have no problem getting these out.


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#5 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

There are three fundamental differences I can think of off the top of my head that make Sith Holocron significantly worse than Black Lotus.

One, which you touched on, is that it only helps Sith cards. But, not only does it not produce any "resources" that can be used towards any Imperial Navy, Smugglers & Spies or even DS Neutral costs, it doesn't even provide a resource match for Sith cards.

Two is that any excess "resources" are wasted. If you didn't spend all 3 mana produced by Black Lotus, it remained in your mana pool until you spent it or reached the end of the phase (or step in the Combat Phase), but you can't use Sith Holocron to play Interrogation for free followed by a free Force Stasis.

Three, the acceleration Holocron provides is relatively marginal. In Magic, you have to build your resource base from zero, so even the one-time boost of Black Lotus is really good since it lets you play a 3-4 mana card on turn 1. In Star Wars, you start with at least 4 resources, which is frequently enough to play all but the very top of your curve. And if you start with a single objective that produces two resources, you can hard-cast all but 3 cards in the game so far (those three being Emperor Palpatine, Devastator, and Executor). Yes, a first turn Executor is potentially backbreaking, but as of right now there are only 3 cards that really benefit from the acceleration, and Sith Holocron doesn't even affect one of them. This may change as more 6-8 cost Sith cards are released, of course.

I think Sith Holocron will be a good card, but it's not near on the same scale of power as Black Lotus in Magic. Perhaps not even the same tier as Sol Ring. It's good, but not that good.



#6 GongShowHost

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:34 PM

The build I prefer is… Imperial Navy Affiliation Imperial Command x2 Cruel Interrogations x2 Counsel of the Sith x2 Fall of the Jedi x2 Emperor's Web x2 So with that premise I love Counsel too, so maybe ditch Cruel. Interrogation will be missed, but Holocron is too great. Aggression is even parity for the loss of a Vader-enabling event. I fully expect this deck with the Executor pod to be dominant. Sith Holocron is patently absurd. Resource acceleration is so thoroughly the estate of the Dark Side that there better be some on the Light Side soon so they can catch up. I firmly believe that once an overarching meta is established this kind of efficiency will rule. The Dark Side is commonly seen as having a leg up and this will only make that worse. The objective itself couldn't even balance it that much because you can fairly easily avoid actually playing an objective. Maybe this set is one per deck?

#7 GongShowHost

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

Sorry about the mess. Posting on a smart phone.

#8 Hida77

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:56 AM

I think its WAYYY to early to say it will be dominant given we have no idea what many of the other factions will be getting and how that will impact things. Do I think Sith are good right now? Yes.  Does this make them better? Probably.  Can I predict the future and say they are now the best? No.

That said, I do like the set so far and do intend to play it in 5 months once its out.  The Black Lotus comparison is not really fair, for all the reasons listed prior.


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#9 Kordos

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:26 PM

Sith does seem to have a resource advantage at the moment with the amount of sith libraries in a 'standard' Sith deck



#10 dbmeboy

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

Kordos said:

Sith does seem to have a resource advantage at the moment with the amount of sith libraries in a 'standard' Sith deck

I don't know about that. Navy has a ton of resource producing units after all. That said, it seems like the dark side also has more of the big, expensive units right now.

#11 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

dbmeboy said:

Kordos said:

Sith does seem to have a resource advantage at the moment with the amount of sith libraries in a 'standard' Sith deck

I don't know about that. Navy has a ton of resource producing units after all. That said, it seems like the dark side also has more of the big, expensive units right now.

Just crunching some numbers quickly for that, using only cards from the Core Set and The Desolation of Hoth for right now.

Across Sith objectives, you have
- 6 Sith Libraries (Provides 1, Counsel of the Sith, Heart of the Empire, The Emperor's Web)
- 2 Advisor to the Emperor (Provides Sith 1, Counsel of the Sith)

For a possible 8 non-objective resources, 2 of which provide a resource match.

Across Imperial Navy objectives, you have
- 4 Command Room (Provides Navy 2, The Ultimate Power, Death and Despayre)
- 2 Admiral Motti (Provides Navy 2, Imperial Command)
- 2 Duty Officer (Provides Navy 1, Imperial Command)
- 2 Grand Moff Tarkin (Provides Navy 1, The Ultimate Power)
- 2 Communications Officer (Provides Navy 2, Lord Vader's Command)

For a grand total of 20 non-objective resources, all of which provide a resource match.

The Sith have 5 cards with a cost greater than or equal to 4.
- Darth Vader (Costs 5, Fall of the Jedi)
- Coruscant Defense Fleet (Costs 5, The Heart of the Empire)
- There Is No Escape (Costs 4, The Heart of the Empire)
- Emperor Palpatine (Costs 6, The Emperor's Web)
- Rancor (Costs 4, Shadows of Dathomir)

The Navy has 4 cards with a cost greater than or equal to 4.
- Orbital Bombardment (Costs 4, Imperial Command)
- Superlaser Blast (Costs 4, The Ultimate Power)
- Devastator (Costs 6, Death and Despayre)
- Darth Vader (Costs 5, Lord Vader's Command)

Additionally, the Navy has 2 cards (Devastator and Imperial Officer) who have a Reaction that requires you to spend resources.

 

For comparison, the Light Side.

Across Jedi objectives, you have
- 4 Dagobah Training Grounds (Provides 1, A Hero's Journey, In You Must Go)
- 2 R2-D2 (Provides 1, A Journey to Dagobah)

For a possible 6 non-objective resources, none of which provide a resource match.

Across Rebel Alliance objectives, you have
- 4 Hidden Outpost (Provides 1, The Defense of Yavin 4, The Rebel Fleet)
- 2 Mon Mothma (Provides Rebel 2, Mission Briefing)
- 2 Fleet Command Center (Provides Rebel 3, Mission Briefing)

For a possible 14 non-objective resources, 10 of which provide a resource match.

Smugglers and Spies also brings us
- 2 Cloud City Casino (Provides 1, Questionable Contacts)

For 2 non-objective resources, neither of which provide a resource match.

The Jedi have 3 cards with a cost greater than or equal to 4.
- Luke Skywalker (Costs 4, A Hero's Journey)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi (Costs 5, Forgotten Heroes)
- Redemption (Costs 5, Last Minute Rescue)

The Rebels have 1 card with a cost greater than or equal to 4
- Home One (Costs 5, The Rebel Fleet)

Smugglers also have 1 card with a cost greater than or equal to 4
- Han Solo (Costs 4, Questionable Contacts)

 

So the initial premise is true - comparing Sith to Jedi and Imperial Navy to Rebel Alliance, the Dark Side has both better resource production and a greater number of expensive cards than the Light. However, the military affiliations produce more resources than the Force user affiliations no matter which side you're on; understandable, given that those decks tend to want to play more cards each turn than their Force user counterparts.



#12 Rogue 4

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:26 AM

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.


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#13 Holliday88

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:46 AM

Rogue 4 said:

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.

 

I really hope they incorporate a way to 'steal' resources. I don't think it was ever shown explicitly in the movies but it would fit the theme of the rebels perfectly. Or, as people have mentioned before, switching sides. There are a ton of stories about falling / redemtion throughout, so taking control of your opponents resource generating characters would be cool too.


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#14 just Logan

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:06 PM

 

Some more data 
With one of each pod- 
 
Imperial- 
Total Resources generated-21
From Objective- 10 
From card 11-
Ave objective 0.8
Ave cost 1.9
 
 
Jedi- 
Total Resources generated-13 (11/2)
From Objective- 10
From card- 3
Ave objective- 0.8
Ave cost- 1.16
 
Rebel
Total Resources generated-18 (16/2)
From Objective- 10
From card- 8
Ave objective- 0.8
Ave cost- 1.14
 
Sith 
Total Resources generated- 16 (13/3)
From Objective- 11
From card- 5
Ave objective- 1.375
Ave cost- 1.52
 
Now even this just scratches the ice- other factors there are- larger, harder to kill, more expensive units are more likely to cause you to focus a resource more than one cutting your effective resources per turn down for one or more turns- Character based resources are far more vulnrable- cost value/versitility is unbalanced-theme and playstyle effect this futher- several objectives reduce cost of some card types- the benefit varies- 
I don't feel like any are really lagging behind the others too much in playability- do the military decks win in more units faster? yeah but I think that's intentional. sith have big guys that are hard to kill- Jedi have big guys that can save heal and recur- Some decks might be harder to build than others or have more leeway on curve planning- but with the ease of dual decks and neutral objectives I think that if you have a cost issue that's going to be builder error, as always. One of the beauties of this game is that totally optimal decks still will have quite a few cards that don't synergize well or are a little too situational or just plain suck. So while you probably won't win a lot with a random assortment of pods one or two pod choices can still get a fair deck especially in the hands of a skilled player. The pods also give players an edge for having knowledge- maybe a bit too much even 
 
And yes! a steal resources option would be great- maybe a 0 or 1 resource LS objective- focus this objective to put one focus on another objective and generate one resource- probably have to make it neutral-one per deck-  


#15 ScottieATF

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

Rogue 4 said:

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.

Where are you coming to the conclusion that the Sith have the upper hand?  They may be the better of the two main DS affiliations, but Jedi match-up perfectly well against them.

The Executor is an 8 cost unit without elite and with no tactics icons of it;s own, it has a great reaction but isn't that strong of a unit for it's cost.  Being Sith (presently) means it's also absurdly vunerable to the X-wing Escort, as Sith has so few vechicles to act as a buffer.  Though i thinkthats the only way it will ever leave the board.



#16 TGO

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:17 AM

ScottieATF said:

Rogue 4 said:

 

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.

 

 

Where are you coming to the conclusion that the Sith have the upper hand?  They may be the better of the two main DS affiliations, but Jedi match-up perfectly well against them.

The Executor is an 8 cost unit without elite and with no tactics icons of it;s own, it has a great reaction but isn't that strong of a unit for it's cost.  Being Sith (presently) means it's also absurdly vunerable to the X-wing Escort, as Sith has so few vechicles to act as a buffer.  Though i thinkthats the only way it will ever leave the board.

 

I have been playing the Devestator in my Sith deck and the X-Wing Escort has not been an issue.  Not to mention, that X-Wing Escort is a non-issue so long as you are not foolish with the Executor, its undamaged. 

 



#17 dbmeboy

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:33 AM

TGO said:

ScottieATF said:

Rogue 4 said:

 

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.

 

 

Where are you coming to the conclusion that the Sith have the upper hand?  They may be the better of the two main DS affiliations, but Jedi match-up perfectly well against them.

The Executor is an 8 cost unit without elite and with no tactics icons of it;s own, it has a great reaction but isn't that strong of a unit for it's cost.  Being Sith (presently) means it's also absurdly vunerable to the X-wing Escort, as Sith has so few vechicles to act as a buffer.  Though i thinkthats the only way it will ever leave the board.

 

I have been playing the Devestator in my Sith deck and the X-Wing Escort has not been an issue.  Not to mention, that X-Wing Escort is a non-issue so long as you are not foolish with the Executor, its undamaged. 

 

Being undamaged won't protect the Executor from X-Wing Escort, the X-Wing doesn't target.

#18 Jedi_Knight

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:00 AM

TGO said:

ScottieATF said:

 

Rogue 4 said:

 

After what D.Knight posted (something my local guys and I saw some time ago, but thanks for posting), it makes me wonder why make the Executor so strong? The Sith already had the upper hand, now they just got stronger.

Can't wait to see how they balance it with the LS. I am sure there will be something.

 

 

Where are you coming to the conclusion that the Sith have the upper hand?  They may be the better of the two main DS affiliations, but Jedi match-up perfectly well against them.

The Executor is an 8 cost unit without elite and with no tactics icons of it;s own, it has a great reaction but isn't that strong of a unit for it's cost.  Being Sith (presently) means it's also absurdly vunerable to the X-wing Escort, as Sith has so few vechicles to act as a buffer.  Though i thinkthats the only way it will ever leave the board.

 

 

 

I have been playing the Devestator in my Sith deck and the X-Wing Escort has not been an issue.  Not to mention, that X-Wing Escort is a non-issue so long as you are not foolish with the Executor, its undamaged. 

 

Not true - Escort targets a player (AFAIK), which would still make that player sacrifice an Executor.

 



#19 TGO

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:16 AM

Hmm, suppose I should have read the escort before posting, I thought it targeted a vehicle. 



#20 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:38 AM

But then, X-Wing Escort is really only an issue in Rebel Assault - I can't think of any builds that use Draw Their Fire outside of it.






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