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Generic R2 & Daredevil


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#1 AnsibleTheta

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:37 PM

The R2 Astromech says to treat all 1 & 2 value maneuvers as green maneuvers.  The Daredevil elite pilot talent card allows as an action a ship to move a value 1, 90 degree turn as a quote "red maneuver".  While is seems obvious that this should always be a stressing action, a friend of mine brings up a valid point.  "Since the daredevil card uses the word 'maneuver' to decribe the action, then a generic R2 astromech, which makes all value 1 & 2 maneuvers green, would apply to daredevil."

I'm inclined to agree here.  If Daredevil just used the 1arrow symbol, it's not an issue, but the use of the word 'maneuver' opens up this possibility.  We the FFG forum community know/agree from previous discussions and threads that critical damage cards (damaged engine) override R2(I think), but which upgrade takes precedence, R2 astromech or Daredevil? If wedge has both R2 & Daredevil (and an engine upgrade :P) does using daredevil put a stress token on him or not?



#2 ziggy2000

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

AnsibleTheta said:

 

The R2 Astromech says to treat all 1 & 2 value maneuvers as green maneuvers.  The Daredevil elite pilot talent card allows as an action a ship to move a value 1, 90 degree turn as a quote "red maneuver".  While is seems obvious that this should always be a stressing action, a friend of mine brings up a valid point.  "Since the daredevil card uses the word 'maneuver' to decribe the action, then a generic R2 astromech, which makes all value 1 & 2 maneuvers green, would apply to daredevil."

I'm inclined to agree here.  If Daredevil just used the 1arrow symbol, it's not an issue, but the use of the word 'maneuver' opens up this possibility.  We the FFG forum community know/agree from previous discussions and threads that critical damage cards (damaged engine) override R2(I think), but which upgrade takes precedence, R2 astromech or Daredevil? If wedge has both R2 & Daredevil (and an engine upgrade :P) does using daredevil put a stress token on him or not?

 

 

From the FAQ:

Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority?
A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship’s turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2-speed turn maneuvers.

The Daredevil would trump the R2, and the maneuver remains red.

 

 



#3 dbmeboy

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:15 PM

I'm actually not sure I agree.  Daredevil doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just sets/states a maneuver.  I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…



#4 Ravncat

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:54 PM

dbmeboy said:

I'm actually not sure I agree.  Daredevil doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just sets/states a maneuver.  I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…

 

i had almost the same thought, and i really want to completely agree but, I think it can change the maneuver. on further thought if the ship maneuver dial is different say a tie fighter, the tie has a white 90 degree turn, not a red one. granted there's no way to put an r2 on a tie. In the case of a ship with no turn 1, I think it becomes ambiguous, and can't change difficulty for a maneuver that doesn't exist, only set it.  What about a theoretical ship that can take the droid and has a red 90degreea speed 1 turn already? There, it is not increasing the difficulty - so daredevil is most certainly not increasing the maneuver difficulty and the FAQ doesn't quite speak to that situation.   



#5 ziggy2000

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

dbmeboy said:

I'm actually not sure I agree.  Daredevil doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just sets/states a maneuver.  I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…

Good point. Looking at it that way, the FAQ ruling does not apply.

 



#6 Buhallin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

Ravncat said:

i had almost the same thought, and i really want to completely agree but, I think it can change the maneuver. on further thought if the ship maneuver dial is different say a tie fighter, the tie has a white 90 degree turn, not a red one. granted there's no way to put an r2 on a tie. In the case of a ship with no turn 1, I think it becomes ambiguous, and can't change difficulty for a maneuver that doesn't exist, only set it.  What about a theoretical ship that can take the droid and has a red 90degreea speed 1 turn already? There, it is not increasing the difficulty - so daredevil is most certainly not increasing the maneuver difficulty and the FAQ doesn't quite speak to that situation.   

I don't think it would matter whether the ship could normally do the 1-Turn or not.  Daredevil doesn't say anything about the normal maneuver, or know or care about the ship's movement dial, or what's on it., so I'd consider it a separate maneuver.  Something like a TIE Fighter with Daredevil would have two separate options for 1-turns: a white maneuver, and a red maneuver.

After looking at the original question, I'm inclined to agree that the R2 would win.  Daredevil creates a new maneuver, it's not changing anything - both because the ship doesn't need the 1-turn on its dial and because Daredevil doesn't do anything to reference existing maneuvers.  Daredevil has a specific maneuver, with a specific difficulty.  No change involved, so there's not any competing effects.

 



#7 Carist

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:59 AM

Buhallin said:

Ravncat said:

 

i had almost the same thought, and i really want to completely agree but, I think it can change the maneuver. on further thought if the ship maneuver dial is different say a tie fighter, the tie has a white 90 degree turn, not a red one. granted there's no way to put an r2 on a tie. In the case of a ship with no turn 1, I think it becomes ambiguous, and can't change difficulty for a maneuver that doesn't exist, only set it.  What about a theoretical ship that can take the droid and has a red 90degreea speed 1 turn already? There, it is not increasing the difficulty - so daredevil is most certainly not increasing the maneuver difficulty and the FAQ doesn't quite speak to that situation.   

 

 

I don't think it would matter whether the ship could normally do the 1-Turn or not.  Daredevil doesn't say anything about the normal maneuver, or know or care about the ship's movement dial, or what's on it., so I'd consider it a separate maneuver.  Something like a TIE Fighter with Daredevil would have two separate options for 1-turns: a white maneuver, and a red maneuver.

After looking at the original question, I'm inclined to agree that the R2 would win.  Daredevil creates a new maneuver, it's not changing anything - both because the ship doesn't need the 1-turn on its dial and because Daredevil doesn't do anything to reference existing maneuvers.  Daredevil has a specific maneuver, with a specific difficulty.  No change involved, so there's not any competing effects.

 

 

 

I agree with this. R2 should also be able to change the 1 straight maneuver you make after getting hit by an ion cannon green.



#8 Darkheart

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

You could even argue that  since there is no "Check Pilot Stress" phase aftter the "Perform Action" phase, the red maneuver does not place a stress marker on the ship. 

Although going by rules as I expect they were intended, you should go through the "Execute Maneuver" and "Check Pilot Stress" for any maneuvering actions. I agree that the FAQ answer woudl not be relevant here as there is not increase in dificulty to a maneuver you are performing. Which would make it a Red 1 maneuver which is then modified to a green 1 by the R2 droid.

Also of note, unlike a barrel roll, you can perform this 90 degree turn even if it would cause you to overlap another ships base.

 

 

 



#9 Ozmodon65

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:40 PM

The one thing I liked was resolve the cards in any order you wish.

#10 rowdyoctopus

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

The way I understand the rules, all maneuvers are initially white.  There is nothing in the rulebook that states any maneuvers are inherently stressful.  Not even the koiogran turn is automatically stressful.  Now so far every ship that can do a k-turn has it as a red maneuver, but there is nothing in the rules preventing a standard level difficulty k-turn from appearing some time down the line (personally, I think game balance would probably prevent it, but nothing in the rules prevents it).  So with that in mind, I think it could be argued that any time an in-game effect tells you to execute a maneuver of a certain color, that maneuver has been modified.

I also think the intent behind the FAQ, while not worded for it, is that you can't get out of stressful maneuvers (unless of course something directly indicates it trumps stressful maneuvers).



#11 Picasso

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

 

I'd like FFG to answer this one.  I read it as if it was like the ion cannon.  It is a red maneuver because the action is requiring you to make a red maneuver.  If you don't make the red maneuver you can't make the action.

I also think the fact is right in that the R2 unit can't change the maneuver to green because (and I am using the ion cannon logic) the R2 unit can't change that white maneuver to green because it is the more difficult of the two options.  

This is a good question and I do plan on asking it at Star Wars weekend.



#12 ziggy2000

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

Picasso said:

This is a good question and I do plan on asking it at Star Wars weekend.

I'm hoping we'll get some answers before then, as that will be a third of the way through the Regionals season. There are some questions that really need to be answered before this Saturday, as they WILL come up in competition. I'd like to see FFG answer them definitively rather than leaving it up to the Regional TOs.

 



#13 radiskull

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:11 PM

rowdyoctopus said:

The way I understand the rules, all maneuvers are initially white.

This is not supported by anything in the rules or the FAQ.



#14 zorrax

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

Darkheart said:

You could even argue that  since there is no "Check Pilot Stress" phase aftter the "Perform Action" phase, the red maneuver does not place a stress marker on the ship. 

Although going by rules as I expect they were intended, you should go through the "Execute Maneuver" and "Check Pilot Stress" for any maneuvering actions. I agree that the FAQ answer woudl not be relevant here as there is not increase in dificulty to a maneuver you are performing. Which would make it a Red 1 maneuver which is then modified to a green 1 by the R2 droid.

Also of note, unlike a barrel roll, you can perform this 90 degree turn even if it would cause you to overlap another ships base.

 

This is my understanding of the rules.



#15 paradox23

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:43 AM

dbmeboy said:

I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…

 

I think this is right.



#16 paradox23

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

The more I think about this one, the more I want an official clarification.



#17 Sergovan

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:12 PM

dbmeboy said:

I'm actually not sure I agree.  Daredevil doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just sets/states a maneuver.  I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…

But that is not what the FAQ is stating. The answer is regarding the original question of two opposing effects. The FAQ does not say wether that effect comes from a pilot ability, a damage card, or an upgrade card, or some other way to generate an effect or whether it creates or modifies something.

If one effect makes a green and one effect makes a red (or white), the red trumps green. 

I would rule that the daredevil card is creating a red effect (because it is an upgrade card and its text is allowing a red maneuver) and the R2 is creating a green effect (also an upgrade card and allowing green maneuvers), therefore the red effect trumps the green effect.

The FAQ uses the R2 and the Damaged Engine critical hit card as an example of when one has come up and how that one is to be ruled. The  original question being asked is regarding two opposing effects, not where they came from, does it matter if one creates and annother modifies, or other intent.

Therefore, if two maneuvering effects are opposing in nature, red trumps green (also by this ruling white trumps green).

Note that a maneuver dial has white maneuvers but is covered in general rules and the R2 is a specific upgrade card. Under Breaking the Rules on p. 20 "Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overides the general rules". So the R2 would trump the white maneuver dial maneuvers (card over general) but not upgrade card white maneuvers (white card abilities trump green card abilities).


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Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 6 A-Wing, 2 YT-1300, 5 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 GR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 2 Tie Phantom, 2 Defender

Tournament results: (S)11 of 11; (S)3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; ®12 of 28; (S) 9 of 10;


#18 dbmeboy

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:43 PM

Sergovan said:

dbmeboy said:

 

I'm actually not sure I agree.  Daredevil doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just sets/states a maneuver.  I suspect that the intent is that the maneuver remain red, but I don't really see anything that would keep R2 from making it green…

 

 

But that is not what the FAQ is stating. The answer is regarding the original question of two opposing effects. The FAQ does not say wether that effect comes from a pilot ability, a damage card, or an upgrade card, or some other way to generate an effect or whether it creates or modifies something.

If one effect makes a green and one effect makes a red (or white), the red trumps green. 

I would rule that the daredevil card is creating a red effect (because it is an upgrade card and its text is allowing a red maneuver) and the R2 is creating a green effect (also an upgrade card and allowing green maneuvers), therefore the red effect trumps the green effect.

The FAQ uses the R2 and the Damaged Engine critical hit card as an example of when one has come up and how that one is to be ruled. The  original question being asked is regarding two opposing effects, not where they came from, does it matter if one creates and annother modifies, or other intent.

Therefore, if two maneuvering effects are opposing in nature, red trumps green (also by this ruling white trumps green).

Note that a maneuver dial has white maneuvers but is covered in general rules and the R2 is a specific upgrade card. Under Breaking the Rules on p. 20 "Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overides the general rules". So the R2 would trump the white maneuver dial maneuvers (card over general) but not upgrade card white maneuvers (white card abilities trump green card abilities).

What the FAQ talks about is 2 effects attempting to change the difficulty of a maneuver, it does not mention anything about creating maneuvers with a given difficulty and then trying to modify them.



#19 Sergovan

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

dbmeboy said:

dbmeboy said:

What the FAQ talks about is 2 effects attempting to change the difficulty of a maneuver, it does not mention anything about creating maneuvers with a given difficulty and then trying to modify them.

From FAQ:

"Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority.

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with an R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship's turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2- speed maneuvers."

dbmeboy, I apologize. I should have quoted the FAQ to start my thread and looked at it a little closer. It does say changing and not if one is created and then modified by another. 

Without input from FFG, then the red maneuver would be "created" (because a player can choose which effect comes first) and the R2 would change it green. So you would do a 90 turn and remove a stress token (argument for another day there)? That makes Daredevil really great for rebel pilots with an R2 if that's the way it is to work!

 

 

 

 


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 6 A-Wing, 2 YT-1300, 5 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 GR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 2 Tie Phantom, 2 Defender

Tournament results: (S)11 of 11; (S)3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; ®12 of 28; (S) 9 of 10;


#20 dbmeboy

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

Like I said earlier, I'd be pretty surprised if that was the intended interaction, and they could certainly reword the FAQ entry to say otherwise, but until they do I'd interpret the combo as working.




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