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First Aid + Healing Crits


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#1 PanzerKraken

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:48 AM

- So there is limit of performing first aid on a character once per act or so.  Does this also restrict your usage of action cards that require a first aid skill check?  Can you for example in a battle use an action card that requires a first aid roll, then perform first aid for recovery effect as normally listed in the rulebook?  Since it's a separate action card with different effect than normal first aid recovery, I assume that it doesn't count as the once per act deal.

- Several actions or effects can cause a wound card that is critical to flip to normal side.  Is it possible for a player to then heal that wound as if it were normal since it's been flipped over?  The players wanted to do this but didn't let them since it seemed a bit gaming the system but perhaps it's intended as a potential quick heal for crits?



#2 Kartigan

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:56 PM

PanzerKraken said:

- So there is limit of performing first aid on a character once per act or so.  Does this also restrict your usage of action cards that require a first aid skill check?  Can you for example in a battle use an action card that requires a first aid roll, then perform first aid for recovery effect as normally listed in the rulebook?  Since it's a separate action card with different effect than normal first aid recovery, I assume that it doesn't count as the once per act deal.

That has been my assumption as well.  So you could for instance use Splints & Bandages on someone and a normal First Aid check.

PanzerKraken said:

- Several actions or effects can cause a wound card that is critical to flip to normal side.  Is it possible for a player to then heal that wound as if it were normal since it's been flipped over?  The players wanted to do this but didn't let them since it seemed a bit gaming the system but perhaps it's intended as a potential quick heal for crits?

 

I assume you mean allow the normal wound to be healed by the same action or roll that converted it from a Critical to a Normal?  I don't have any rule reference but it has been my rule that no, a crit can be turned into a normal wound by something, but you then have to wait for rest or some other form of healing to actually get rid of the wound card itself.  Grim & Perilous and all that.



#3 PanzerKraken

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:40 AM

Essentially, though a friend argues that even action card like splints and bandages counts as a normal first aid roll so it triggers the once per day/act limit.  Some dude also printed this on some web based helper pdf file so it's causing conflict on the use of such cards, since the card itself says it can be used once per encounter instead.

As for changing a crit into a normal wound temporary, we assume this could be used to make first aid checks/healing easier since now the person is considered lightly wounded?  Bright wizard cauterizes the crit, so then the healer comes in and has an easier roll?



#4 dvang

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:54 AM

1) No. It isn't per action card.  The restriction is per TYPE.  For example, you are not able to receive a healing blessing from a priestess of Shallya and a healing blessing from the priest of Sigmar (or other priest that has a blessing that can heal). 

So, there are only about 5 'types' or healing.  1) First Aid/Medicine (i.e. non-magical), 2) Blessings, 3) Spells, 4) Potions/Draughts, 5) Rest

Potentially there might be others, like an object that heals (but doesn't cast a Blessing or Spell), but the above would be the typical types.

 

2) The wound is healed based on the condition it is at the time the test/roll takes place. If it was previously a Critical but has been turned into a normal wound … then it is currently a normal wound for all purposes. If it was a critical at the time that the current roll was made, then no, it is still considered a critical. Applying the results is "simultaneous".

For example, Hans has 3 Normal Wounds and a Critical Wound (severity 3).  He rolls exceptionally well for recovery, rolling 3 successes and 4 boons.

3 successes recovers a severity 3 critical, turning it into a normal wound.

4 boons is enough to heal 4 wounds, however Hans has 3 wounds + 1 critical when he made the roll. Therefore, only 3 normal wounds are eligible to be healed.

Hans ends with a single normal wound (the one previously a critical).



#5 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:06 AM

dvang said:

1) No. It isn't per action card.  The restriction is per TYPE.  For example, you are not able to receive a healing blessing from a priestess of Shallya and a healing blessing from the priest of Sigmar (or other priest that has a blessing that can heal). 

So, there are only about 5 'types' or healing.  1) First Aid/Medicine (i.e. non-magical), 2) Blessings, 3) Spells, 4) Potions/Draughts, 5) Rest

Potentially there might be others, like an object that heals (but doesn't cast a Blessing or Spell), but the above would be the typical types.

Is that in a rulebook somewhere?  I like your interpretation. I think it would work pretty well in play. I could see myself using that version in the game… but I don't think it's what the rules actually say.

The healing & recuperation section on pages 64 to 65 of the core rulebook limit First Aid to "once per act during an encounter" or per scene outside an encounter.

The rules imply a similar limit for Medicine (somewhat more restricted than First Aid actually, since you're not allowed to use Medicine during a fight), but nowhere on those pages does it clearly and definitively state that if you are treated with First Aid you can't be treated with Medicine, or vise-versa. (For the record, I would interpret that part exactly the way you are/do, but it sure could have been clearer in the book.)

Per page 65, Healing Draughts are specifically limited to once per DAY, not per Act or Scene.

Those rules make no mention (that I've seen anyway) of healing limits for spells or blessings. The notion of there being 5 categories of healing that are each limited to once per Act doesn't appear in the text anywhere that I've seen. Which is a shame, because the rules as written make wound recovery super-easy once you've got a single healing spell or blessing, and ultimately only limited by the playgroup's patience for repetitive die-rolling.

 



#6 dvang

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:13 AM

It was stated by FFG/Jay Little.  I think it is either in the FAQ, or was his answer to a question about this in his "small but vicious seminar" video. I can't recall which. From what I remember, it was assumed but not explicitly stated in the rulebook.

Simply, though, WFRP is flexible enough for the GM to limit it however they like.

The "5 categories" concept you won't find anywhere, but is a logical progression from the official idea that healing is restricted to once per 'type'.  I could only think of 5 "types" off hand.



#7 Matchstickman

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:07 PM

dvang said:

 

1) No. It isn't per action card.  The restriction is per TYPE.  For example, you are not able to receive a healing blessing from a priestess of Shallya and a healing blessing from the priest of Sigmar (or other priest that has a blessing that can heal). 

So, there are only about 5 'types' or healing.  1) First Aid/Medicine (i.e. non-magical), 2) Blessings, 3) Spells, 4) Potions/Draughts, 5) Rest

Potentially there might be others, like an object that heals (but doesn't cast a Blessing or Spell), but the above would be the typical types.

 

 

I disagree.  The Player's Guide on page 89 specifically lists Splints & Bandages as separate from a First Aid check.

The restriction is not per type, it is per 'source'; First Aid is a souce, Medicine is a source, Splints & Bandages is a source, they are all separate actions with their own differing success and failure results, otherwise why would you spend XP on S&B if the First Aid skill alone does the same job?

If what you say is true and S&B counts as a First Aid type of healing then Shyallian Priests just took a huge step down, as all their healing blessings would fall under the same type of action, that of Innvocation, and you could only benefit from one particular blessing each day, rather than each Blessing per day (again, page 89 of the Player's Guide would seem to contradict this assessment).

 

EDIT: I see you mention Jay Little in a later post. If this clarification exisits it would have to be in the SBV vidcast, because it's definately not in any of the FAQs that have been hosted on this site (and I haven't watched the video).



#8 Matchstickman

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

Let me post the relevant passage from page 89 for clarity

 

----
To discourage this behavior and highlight the dangers of combat
in your game, players should be mindful of the following general
guideline for healing: each character may benefit from each specific
source of healing once per day. Healing has its limits.
 
For example, a character who is healed by a Shallyan priest’s
Soothing Touch blessing cannot benefit from a second Soothing
Touch blessing until the following day—though a different blessing
such as Cure Wounds could still be applied. Likewise, only one
application of the Splints & Bandages action, one successful First
Aid check, one healing draught, and one good night’s rest can be
applied toward an individual character’s recovery each day.
----
 
All emphasis copied from the book

 



#9 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:12 PM

Matchstickman said:

 

Let me post the relevant passage from page 89 for clarity

 

----
To discourage this behavior and highlight the dangers of combat
in your game, players should be mindful of the following general
guideline for healing: each character may benefit from each specific
source of healing once per day. Healing has its limits.
 
For example, a character who is healed by a Shallyan priest’s
Soothing Touch blessing cannot benefit from a second Soothing
Touch blessing until the following day—though a different blessing
such as Cure Wounds could still be applied. Likewise, only one
application of the Splints & Bandages action, one successful First
Aid check, one healing draught, and one good night’s rest can be
applied toward an individual character’s recovery each day.
----
 
All emphasis copied from the book

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome! Thank you for sharing that quote.  Which book is that from?    Page 89 of the core rulebook is "A Brief History of the Empire", so it's not from there.

EDIT after reading your other post: The Player's Guide!   (I thought FFG had said you didn't need it if you had the core set, so I never bought it.)



#10 dvang

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:54 AM

Personally, it makes no sense to me to be able to cast multiple blessings that do the same thing on the same wound. It's essentially no different from casting the same blessing multiple times.

If you want to use a blessing to heal a wound, use your best one, or the one best suited for that particular situation.  Whether this is due to Favor cost, ability to heal criticals, boon line effects, etc.

Keep in mind that First Aid won't work in combat, while Splints and Bandages can be done in combat. Plus, S&B,  I believe, has some different effect lines. So, S&B is in no way obviated. Similarly, different Shallyan Blessings have different costs and bonuses, so again I do not feel Shallyan priests are in any way disadvantaged or taking a step down.  In fact, it makes healing (and healing blessings) even more important. 

I had some discussion with Jay Little and the folks at FFG a few years ago when I was playtesting WFRP.  This is how I understood how healing was supposed/intended to work. Its been a while since I've looked up the new rules in the rulebook.  I suppose my interpretation of "source" is a bit harsher than what is posted above, but it fits WFRP much better and makes it gritter, IMO. 

Keep in mind, though, that each night's rest, or each Act, recycles the ability to heal, as does receiving additional wounds. So, it's not like the PCs will never get a chance to cast a healing blessing or use first aid again.



#11 Kartigan

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:32 AM

Splints and Bandages has the identical same effect lines as normal First Aid, there is no difference whatsoever.  Furthermore, where do you get that First Aid cannot be used in combat?  The rules indicate the exact opposite:

"Long-term care may be the best option, but sometimes more immediate attention is required, such as tending to a bleeding wound in the middle of combat, or setting a broken arm after a nasty fall.  Immediate care relies on the First Aid skill." (emphasis mine)

The entire point of S&B is that it allows you to use 2 first aid checks on the same person.  Otherwise, the card is entirely useless since it doesn't do anything different from normal First Aid.



#12 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:15 AM

Kartigan said:

Splints and Bandages has the identical same effect lines as normal First Aid, there is no difference whatsoever.  

Otherwise, the card is entirely useless since it doesn't do anything different from normal First Aid.

I think you may have missed the triple-success line on Splints & Bandages.

If you roll 0 to 2 successes, it's identical to the basic First Aid check effects. 2 successes = 2 wounds healed.

If you roll 3 or more successes on S&B, it heals +2 more wounds than would be healed by a basic First Aid check with the identical number of successes. 3 successes = 5 wounds healed.

 






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