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Toxic Trait makes no sense.


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#1 HappyDaze

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:07 AM

Has anyone looked at the Toxic Trait - the one for creatures, not the one for weapon? As written, the creature is so toxic that anyone that successfully deals damage to a Toxic creature must make a Toughness Test or suffer 1d10 damage (of the same type as the weapon that inflicted the hit) that is not reduced by armour or Toughness.

WTF?

So if I hit the Toxic beast with a sword the Toxic damage 'spash' is Rending, but if I hit it with a power sword it's Energy instead?

And somehow this Toxic damage 'spash' can reach me when I shoot the Toxic beast with an autocannon at 300m+?

And somehow this Toxic damage 'splash'  can bypass Terminator Armour?

Yeah…

Imagine having Toxic minions that can take a hit for a big bad NPC - the PCs can kill themselves off trying to snipe the bodyguards. Heaven help the guy that uses a flamer or grenade against several Toxic creatures…

This is just stupid and poorly written rule, but the errata seems silent on it.


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#2 Routa-maa

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

 

BC official errata p.5
Question: Does the Toxic Trait (page 143) also apply if the creature is is dealt Damage from a Ranged Attack?
Answer: Yes, but only if the attacker makes the Attack at Point Blank Range.
 
This might answer your question about range killing toxic

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#3 HappyDaze

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 01:49 PM

Routa-maa said:

 

BC official errata p.5
Question: Does the Toxic Trait (page 143) also apply if the creature is is dealt Damage from a Ranged Attack?
Answer: Yes, but only if the attacker makes the Attack at Point Blank Range.
 
This might answer your question about range killing toxic

It still doesn't explain how it spashes back and goes right through fully sealed armour. It also doesn't explain why the toxic 'splash' can't hit others that are within 3m (point plank) of the target even if they are not the attacker. Shooting Toxic Joe when he's right next to his buddy should have some chance of exposing that buddy to the toxins rather than the toxins mysteriously following the attack back to the source.


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#4 NytemareRhosyn

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:30 PM

house rule it… give it a chance based off what hit them impact and energy wont be as bad to hit others but tearuing or rending weapons…ur drenched

 



#5 Routa-maa

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:14 PM

HappyDaze said:

Routa-maa said:

 

 

BC official errata p.5
Question: Does the Toxic Trait (page 143) also apply if the creature is is dealt Damage from a Ranged Attack?
Answer: Yes, but only if the attacker makes the Attack at Point Blank Range.
 
This might answer your question about range killing toxic

 

 

It still doesn't explain how it spashes back and goes right through fully sealed armour. It also doesn't explain why the toxic 'splash' can't hit others that are within 3m (point plank) of the target even if they are not the attacker. Shooting Toxic Joe when he's right next to his buddy should have some chance of exposing that buddy to the toxins rather than the toxins mysteriously following the attack back to the source.

Well I might not have said it explains all but ranged attacks giving you protection. Power armour or some other enviromentally sealed suit should in my mind give you at least some protection from toxics. But dunno maybe they thought that every creature that has toxic trait has somekind acid blood like Xenomorphs in Alien movies atontado


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#6 Kiton

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

Also the direction: Hit the toxic critter with a flamer, and not only does it start bleeding, it explodes its bleeding outwards back towards you.

While brains splatter where the bullet exits, toxic fluids are shot straight back towards the barrel of your meltagun.



#7 HappyDaze

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

Routa-maa said:

 But dunno maybe they thought that every creature that has toxic trait has somekind acid blood like Xenomorphs in Alien movies atontado

I think that's certainly what they were going with for the image, but armour should still provide protection against corrosives (cosider the acid that CSMs can spit for a mild example), and corrosives typically are resisted with TB (like most sources of Damage) not a Toughness check, so the Toxic Trait is really all over the place.


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#8 Cymbel

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:17 AM

Easiest way to fix it is to just pencil in, "unless your character is wearing sealed armor"



#9 crisaron

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:13 AM

Somehow the movie aliens explains this toxic trait very well, sealed armor or not…



#10 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

crisaron said:

Somehow the movie aliens explains this toxic trait very well, sealed armor or not…

Really?

Does the 'toxin' of the aliens cause different types of damage based upon what type of weapon hits the alien? No.

Does the 'toxin' of the aliens only spash preciesly on the attacker and not into the area around a struck alien? No.

Does the 'toxin' of the aliens totally bypass armour? No (consider that the armour Hicks wore allowed him a few moments to discard it before it got to his flesh).

The aliens have corrosive blood, not a toxin. This Trait is poorly written because it tries to mix a toxin-like mechanic (the Toughness Test to resist) rather than just using TB and armour - which would be more appropriate for a corrosive splash (see the CSM's corrosive spittle). There are certainly some creatures in WH40K that are sufficiently armoured to laugh off a spash of acid, and the AP should matter.


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#11 Alekzanter

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

HappyDaze, 
I gotta say, I'm a big fan of your void ship combat House Rules over on the Rogue Trader forum. I've yet to host an engagement in the void, but your House Rules have tempted to the brink. I just have to keep an even keel, and insert the event when it makes sense rather than because "I wanna, now!"

After looking closely at the Toxic Trait, I have to agree with you; it's looney.

It's late where I'm at, and I've been up over 24 hours now (25.5 to pin it a little closer), but I'll take a look at this again later this morning. Off the top of my head (without digging out the source) the Dark Eldar Liquifier Gun in The Soul Reaver had an nifty Corrosive-esque mechanic, and perhaps between that and the Trait as it stands I can fashion something that isn't tripping all over itself to kill everyone with everything.

It may be they (the developers) intended it to be…an "amorphous" toxin, perhaps with several different layers of effects, but they failed in the descriptive text and left us with poo. You know, like Toxin Strain 1 does X with a -10 penalty, and Toxing Strain 2 does Y with a -20 penalty, and so on?
 

Aaaand my brain is also telling me not to forget digging out my 1st Ed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rules; trolls had a Corrosive vomit attack, and if you split their bellies open you could end up drenched in acidic bile…

 



#12 HappyDaze

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

I'd suggest that the Toxic Trait might be best represented by using a variant of the Spray weapon rules. In this case, striking the creature with Explosive, Impact, or Rending damage would cause a 360-degree spray of the toxin/corrosive that can be avoided with an Agility Test. The range/radius of the spray can vary by creature, and so too can the effect of the toxin/corrosive (it could be anything from contact neurotoxins to inhaled spores to molten iron for blood).


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