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are axis super heavys (Sturmkönig and Königsluther) to weak?


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#1 Moe-them-down

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:31 AM

Hey guys,

as probably many of you,like incredibly big tanks and especially big walkers. And with Maus, Ratte and Monster, there was one faction during WWII that was actually wanting to build war machines like that.

So when I first saw the axis super heavy walker pack, I had to get them! Today I am very disapointed by both of them.

It took me long to field one, because when doing the math, I saw that a Königslothar's specialty, lacking any special rule, are just his Stats. 

 The Königslothar is outgunned by two simple Lothars (against armor 7 KL has 7 dice - two Lothars have 10 dice) Above that, two Lothars supply one additional actvation per round. Besides two tanks can guard a far greater part of the field than one tank. 

 Looking at the armor, armor 7 seems better than armor 4 and 10 hits better than 8 (4+4). But on one hand, the allied troops (all of my opponents play allies) have two terrifiing tank killers who single shot you, no matter how many hitpoints you got left (fireball and steel rain) and more and more units seem to damage all tanks equally, no matter the armor (tank busters, steel rain missiles, allied mortar team). 

I like the allied heavy walkers better (especially the fireball), beeing walking fortesses packed with secondary machine guns, the flamer is more than impressive and Rosie and Sergeant victory are great support.

But I don´t think it is necessary to compare axis and allies since all factions need to have their strenghts and weaknesses.

But compared to other axis troops, I wanted to find a situation where it makes sense to field a super heavy (besides the fun it generates to play the giant models). 

My last hope was, that the Sturmkö*** would become the superrior AA-Tank, once aircraft was introduced. But even two Heinrichs outgun it (for 35 points less).   

 

What are your experiences? When do you see sense in fielding those two? Thanks a lot in advance

 

 



#2 Moe-them-down

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:35 AM

accidental post. Please delete.



#3 Kriegschatten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:16 AM

I agree.  I never picked up the Axis heavies because they are just not worth the points.

Their biggest problem (as has been mentioned here many times) is their size.  Taking up four squares just makes them nigh impossible to use when playing most published scenarios or using the tournament rules (especially the new ones that allow a water tile).

But even if they only took up two squares (like the SSU tanks), they still probably wouldn't get much use.

They're just not that well armed.  They only have their main guns and a single MG44 zwei.  Compare that to the Allied and SSU heavy armor which are bristling with machine guns and flamethrowers (and can carry troops), and the Axis heavies seem pretty mediocre.

And then things really fall apart when you start thinking about what else you could purchase with those points.  For the cost of a Konigsluther, you could get two Ludwigs and a squad of Recon Grenadiers.  Activations are so important in this game, so why would you cripple yourself by fielding 1 unit when you could field 3 instead--and get more firepower to boot?

Same thing with the Sturmkonig.  For it's cost, you could field 2 Fledermaus III aircraft, which are way less vulnerable and give you far more firepower against almost everything.

 

I think the current state of the game really favors swarms of medium & low-cost units instead of a few high-cost ones.  As mentioned above, out activating your opponent can be a huge advantage.  And aircraft make it far too easy now to assassinate high-value targets right at the beginning of the game.

 

 



#4 Lska

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

We play them mostly for fun. Also we don't have a lot of multiply units so they hit the deck often and are just fun. What you guys forget is their survivability. They can withstand punishment and fight eye  to eye with any unit. Also if fireball is killing your hvy walkers you are doing sth wrong in my opinion. It schouldn't get close. But i agree about the tank busters. On the other hand the Axis have their hvy lasers as major anti hvy walker weapon..



#5 Major Mishap

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:07 PM

Fireball looks awesome on paper but It normally gets shot-up before it can shoot.  When we play we just agree that we both take a set number of heavies in a game and normally only when playing large games.  But as you say, for competetive play they are pretty rubbish.



#6 Lska

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:10 AM

Well competitive play is around 300 points so it would be a bold idea but i saw 300 point armies witha sturmkonig so evertything is possible!:D



#7 Gothik

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:35 AM

In our gaming group I distinguish three types of Dust Tactics games: scenario/campaign, tournament and large battles. In scenario/campaign situation is plain simple - you can field heavies only on maps with large entry corridors and large point limit (600+ points). In regular tournament games (300+ fielding a heavy is a suicide) - its cost will eat up 1/3 of your army limit and in tournament games outactivation is a major problem. So if you are planning to play only scenarios or small games, sell your big boys on ebay ASAP. However, if You have more fellow players or a gaming group and you play large battles - heavy walkers (regardless of affiliation) are kings of the battlefield. Losing a heavie in games with 800+ points doesn`t hurt so much, they can control large parts of the maps and contrary to small maps, they aren`t necessarily  first choce targets because of the bigger choice of strategic options. Playing with them is a pure fun.

Here`s a picture froum our epic battle yesterday, 1000 points per side. SSU tanks vs Axis heavies. Knockout for Axis, only one heavy walker destroyed, two SSU tanks wrecked.

 

 

 



#8 Moe-them-down

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:21 AM

Lska said:

We play them mostly for fun. Also we don't have a lot of multiply units so they hit the deck often and are just fun. What you guys forget is their survivability. They can withstand punishment and fight eye  to eye with any unit. Also if fireball is killing your hvy walkers you are doing sth wrong in my opinion. It schouldn't get close. But i agree about the tank busters. On the other hand the Axis have their hvy lasers as major anti hvy walker weapon..

We have Fireball on one side of the field, Königslothar on the other side. Field ist 9 spaces wide, most of the time.

Both enter and just walk in, no shots fired. Fireball scoutmoves two spaces, and moves two spaces.

 

Now we have 3 spaces between the walkers…

 

If Fireball Bazookajoes initiative, he moves one space and fires his Flamer at the Königslothar before it even fired a single shot in the game (!) and kills it in two of three cases with one shot. Any unit blocking that Fireball move has to have moved 5 spaces in the first turn (making it a 50 point sacrifice, since it has to be Gren. X + Zombies or Stefan with Sturmpioniere).

So help me out, what am I doing wrong? Or better, what can I do right?



#9 Kriegschatten

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:53 AM

Moe-them-down said:

If Fireball Bazookajoes initiative, he moves one space and fires his Flamer at the Königslothar before it even fired a single shot in the game (!) and kills it in two of three cases with one shot. Any unit blocking that Fireball move has to have moved 5 spaces in the first turn (making it a 50 point sacrifice, since it has to be Gren. X + Zombies or Stefan with Sturmpioniere).

So help me out, what am I doing wrong? Or better, what can I do right?

 

I don't quite understand the highlighted bit.

The Fireball does 2/6 against an Armor 7 walker.  The Konigsluther has 10 health.  So, the Fireball would have to hit the Konigsluther with both dice to kill it.  And there's only like a 1 in 10 chance of that happening.

 

Also, it sounds like you're always positioning the Konigsluther directly opposite the Fireball.  Why not try placing it on a different part of the battlefield so the Fireball has to go farther to get to you?



#10 Moe-them-down

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:42 AM

Kriegschatten said:

The Fireball does 2/6 against an Armor 7 walker.  The Konigsluther has 10 health.  So, the Fireball would have to hit the Konigsluther with both dice to kill it.  And there's only like a 1 in 10 chance of that happening.

Kriegsschatten, you are completely right. I guess in my last game I should had looked at Fireballs card again card. My mistake

 

Kriegschatten said:

Also, it sounds like you're always positioning the Konigsluther directly opposite the Fireball.  Why not try placing it on a different part of the battlefield so the Fireball has to go farther to get to you?

You are right again. However in my last game, positions for four sqare walkers where very limited. While I was testing the Prinzluther as well choices where very few. 

Thank you.



#11 Jiltedtoo

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:07 AM

The biggest problem with the Axis Heavy Walkers is the weapons lines are not split. If I could target two mediums with one heavy it would be well worth it rather than the over kill I usually receive when taking out a medium with a heavy.

People are right it is better to take two ludwigs and recon gren squad then a single heavy. I usually only take a heavy when I am being lazy and want to field a small force, or if it is a big game.






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