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The Lidless Stare and Astropaths - A Conundrum


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#1 Malevant

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

I am just starting up a new Rogue Trader campaign, and unlike the last one this time we actually have a player that is playing a Navigator.  This has led to several questions about Lidless Stare (most of which I was able to get answered through the search function).  However, one issue has arisen - what special interaction (if any) is there between a Lidless Stare and Astropaths Transcendant?  The Astropath is adamant that he would be immune, and the Navigator is adamant that he would NOT be immune.  I've checked the errata and the forums without luck, so I'm hoping I can get some input from the collective wisdom of the forums.

The way I see it, there are several possibilities…

1) The Astropath is able to "see" the Navigator's Warp Eye when the Lidless Stare is used, resulting in…

     1A) The power is resolved as normal against the Astropath, with full effect.  Relevant text is in the Lidless Stare power, which outlines what are not affected (Daemons, Untouchables), but does NOT state Astropaths

      1B) The Astropath is immune because he/she doesn't have "normal" vision.  Relevant text is on Page 72 of the Core Rules, which states that "However, Astropaths Transcendent are not affected by effects that target their vision, such as blind grenades and cameleoline."

      1C) The Astropath is affected, but because it is basically a "warp" power, he gets a +20 due to his Sanctioning.

2) The Astropath is unable to "see" the Navigator's Warp Eye because he is technically "blind" with normal vision, resulting in no affect.

 

Any input (including "Hey, the answer is <insert location here>!" would be greatly appreciated.



#2 SirFrog

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:39 PM

Unfortunately, I haven't found any support in the rules for anything, so it's really up to the GM I suppose, but bear this in mind:

The Lidless Stare, while certainly visual, is not in its essence a visual attack. In fact, the highest level of The Lidless Stare can STILL shear your soul out even if you're behind cover closing your eyes. It is channeling the warp, thus having a warp signature, and thus visible to an Astropath. As such, they are supbject to it as usual. I would, however, rule that the Astropath gets his +20 due to sanctioning, as The Lidless Stare hurts his soul and his soul is protected by The Emperor.

However, it is in the end up to the GM.



#3 Malevant

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

SirFrog,

     That was one of my thoughts as well.  Ultimately I'll need to pull the trigger and make a call on it, but luckily we had to cancel our game session this week, so I have a little more time to poke around for input/ideas before I make my final call on it.



#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

I see absolutely no reason why the Astropath would be immune.

"An Astropath Transcendent is functionally treated as if he can see normally (including seeing colours and being limited by walls, etc.). However, Astropaths Transcendent are not affected by effects that target their vision, such as blind grenades and cameleoline."

The Lidless Stare doesn't  affect his vision. It is dependant on him seeing it, yes, but as explained in the Astropath's Special Abilities entry, his vision - and thus his ability to see The Lidless Stare - isn't impeded in any way.

Arguably, he shouldn't even be able to close his eyes to it, seeing as how it's the warp and he doesn't actually have any eyes to close.

I'd throw him a bone with the +20, however. But that's completely homebrewed. There's actually no support for it in the rules at all, but it's arguable that it should apply from a "it makes sense" perspective.


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Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#5 eBarbarossa

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:51 PM

Fgdsfg said:

Arguably, he shouldn't even be able to close his eyes to it, seeing as how it's the warp and he doesn't actually have any eyes to close.

 

He might be able to 'dim' his psychic vision.



#6 Fgdsfg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM

eBarbarossa said:

Fgdsfg said:

Arguably, he shouldn't even be able to close his eyes to it, seeing as how it's the warp and he doesn't actually have any eyes to close.

He might be able to 'dim' his psychic vision.

Possibly. I just meant that there's an argument to be made, hence "arguably". I personally wouldn't rule that, it would just be bloody mean.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.





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