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Glorious Battles - maximum spells question


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#1 Lord Kalten

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

Hi all,

Prophetess

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Prophetess

looks at another character's spell cards and knows they have Psionic Blast:

http://www.talismanw...m/Psionic_Blast

 

Prophetess lands on character and initiates combat. 

Other character plays Psionic Blast.

Prophetess plays Counterspell:

http://www.talismanw...om/Counterspell

Prophetess plays Spell Call:

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Spell_Call

Prophetess plays Psionic Blast:

http://www.talismanw...m/Psionic_Blast

 

Good battle.  Fortunately for Prophetess she had 3 spell cards in her hand at start of turn - otherwise could not have pulled this off.

Seems odd that in revised 4th edition you can only cast as many spells as you had at the start of your turn.

I would have thought that at least during battle, this rule did not apply.

I think in 2nd edition at some point the rules were revised later to allow any number of spells in your own turn but if its someone else's you can only cast one - or something to that effect.

Anyway, is the above spell casting legal?  I think it is as it's all pre-combat.



#2 Dam

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:09 PM

Looks alright to me. If you got three spells, especially ones that you can combo like that, why not make use of them?


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 damzow

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:58 AM

seems legid. but this situation raises a question..

the opponent playes the 'psionic blast' spell and then the prophetess playes the 'counterspell'.

technically, after playing the 'counterspell' the 'psionic blast' spell should already be in the dicard pile and the 'spellcall' can only work on the

'counterspell' .

so as i can see it , the prophetess can either play the 'counterspell' to cancel the 'psionic blast' and then play the 'spellcall' on the 'counter spall'

or

play the 'spellcall' on the 'psionic blast' without negating the opponents 'psionic blast'.

did i get it wrong?



#4 The_Warlock

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:23 AM

damzow said:

seems legid. but this situation raises a question..

the opponent playes the 'psionic blast' spell and then the prophetess playes the 'counterspell'.

technically, after playing the 'counterspell' the 'psionic blast' spell should already be in the dicard pile and the 'spellcall' can only work on the

'counterspell' .

so as i can see it , the prophetess can either play the 'counterspell' to cancel the 'psionic blast' and then play the 'spellcall' on the 'counter spall'

or

play the 'spellcall' on the 'psionic blast' without negating the opponents 'psionic blast'.

did i get it wrong?

You're right, this is not standard as it seems.

Spell Call is "cast immediately after a character cast a Spell" to take it instead of placing it on the discard pile. Counterspell negates the effect of any Spell just cast.

Besides the inconsistencies in the wording, Counterspell and Spell Call are played exactly at the same time (after a Spell has been cast), but I would say they can't be played both on the same Spell.

You can either play Counterspell or Spell Call after Psionic Blast, not both.

The second Spell won't fulfill the condition "immediately after" or "just cast".

 



#5 damzow

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:01 AM

cheers!

this might change a few tactics in our game.



#6 Lord Kalten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

The_Warlock said:

You're right, this is not standard as it seems.

Spell Call is "cast immediately after a character cast a Spell" to take it instead of placing it on the discard pile. Counterspell negates the effect of any Spell just cast.

Besides the inconsistencies in the wording, Counterspell and Spell Call are played exactly at the same time (after a Spell has been cast), but I would say they can't be played both on the same Spell.

You can either play Counterspell or Spell Call after Psionic Blast, not both.

The second Spell won't fulfill the condition "immediately after" or "just cast".

Interesting…there is also the concept of order.

In Talisman, regardless of when something takes effect, I assume that order is simply the sequence of when you draw the card or in this case possible Psionic Blast and Counterspell take effect at the same time.

However, the sequence inwhich cards are put into the discard pile would definately be debated in other games.  Whether you have a Counterspell or some kind of redirection spell, even if it is cast after Psionic Blast, it has to be resolved first.  In other words, for Counterspell to be successful, it has to complete first and therefore hits the discard pile first.

Therefore, Spell Call can then retrieve Psionic Blast.

 

Futhermore, I am not sure why both spells cannot target the same spell.  Whilst in normal cirumstances I agree that this would be correct, Counterspell targets the card whereas Spell Call targets the discarded spell regardless of whether or not it had successfully been cast and therefore would always find a valid target.



#7 The_Warlock

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:24 AM

Sorry for double post, but I could not make the quoting tags work on this one.



#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:42 AM

Lord Kalten said:

 

Interesting…there is also the concept of order.

In Talisman, regardless of when something takes effect, I assume that order is simply the sequence of when you draw the card or in this case possible Psionic Blast and Counterspell take effect at the same time.

However, the sequence inwhich cards are put into the discard pile would definately be debated in other games.  Whether you have a Counterspell or some kind of redirection spell, even if it is cast after Psionic Blast, it has to be resolved first.  In other words, for Counterspell to be successful, it has to complete first and therefore hits the discard pile first.

Therefore, Spell Call can then retrieve Psionic Blast.

 

Counterspell may get to discard pile first, after or together with Psionic Blast, that's not the point (see below).

Lord Kalten said:

Futhermore, I am not sure why both spells cannot target the same spell.  Whilst in normal cirumstances I agree that this would be correct, Counterspell targets the card whereas Spell Call targets the discarded spell regardless of whether or not it had successfully been cast and therefore would always find a valid target.

 

 

Spell Call doesn't target "the last Spell that's been put on the discard pile"; on the contrary it says that the Spell never gets to the pile at all. If you strictly analyze the wording, as you should always do with Spells, Spell Call targets NOTHING. It needs to be cast "immediately after any character casts a Spell", so only timing is relevant. If Counterspell is cast after Psionic Blast, then your Spell Call is cast immediately after Counterspell and that's the only Spell you can get.

In the same fashion, Counterspell is used in reaction to a Spell and it's one of the few options to interact with a Spell that's already been cast (only other option is Reflection). Normally, you cannot play a Spell in response to another Spell; you have to resolve it first. But Counterspell has a strict condition when it says "a Spell just cast".

For this reason, if you play Spell Call after Psionic Blast, you can take the Spell before it hits the discard pile, but you cannot negate the effect with Counterspell, because Spell Call is the "Spell just cast".



#9 Bolithio

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:50 AM

Im with Warlock on this one. Thats how we would rule that.






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