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theon greyjoy


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#1 LFenix

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

I´m a bit confused with the timing of theon greyjoy.

 

it´s ability says at the beggining of the dominance fase, discard a card from the top of the opponents deck and if it´s a char, put it into play.

 

So, when is that "at the beggining of the phase" exactly? Before the shadows timefrmae? after that but before the dominance is calced? in the first action window?

 

Thanks in advance



#2 Skowza

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

ktom said it happens after Shadows but before counting Dominance.  Someone else can explain it in more detail if they want to…



#3 stormwolf27

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

Skowza said:

ktom said it happens after Shadows but before counting Dominance.  Someone else can explain it in more detail if they want to…

Right. The most recent clarification on timing structure shows that each phase breaks down to:

1. Shadows

2. Any "beginning of phase" actions/passives/etc.

3. Whatever else happens in the particular phase you're in.

 

(yes I know that's a very simplistic breakdown, but I don't want to bore people with unnecessary details)

 

In your example with Theon, his passive text (providing he is in your dead pile) triggers after shadows actions are allowed, but before dominance is counted. So, if the card discarded from your opponent's deck(s) is a (I believe it has to be unique to trigger his put into play mechanic) character, then he will be in play and counting towards your dominance total for that round.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#4 Khudzlin

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:35 AM

Theon's response is indeed "After a unique character is discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, put Theon Greyjoy into play from your dead pile."



#5 ktom

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:53 AM

stormwolf27 said:

Right. The most recent clarification on timing structure shows that each phase breaks down to:

1. Shadows

2. Any "beginning of phase" actions/passives/etc.

3. Whatever else happens in the particular phase you're in.

I love the use of the term "most recent" here since this is how the timing has worked since Shadows was introduced 3+ years ago. complice



#6 stormwolf27

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:10 PM

ktom said:

stormwolf27 said:

Right. The most recent clarification on timing structure shows that each phase breaks down to:

 

1. Shadows

2. Any "beginning of phase" actions/passives/etc.

3. Whatever else happens in the particular phase you're in.

I love the use of the term "most recent" here since this is how the timing has worked since Shadows was introduced 3+ years ago. complice

 

I know that, but it wasn't introduced to the actual flow chart till the most recent FAQ


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#7 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:00 AM

Although, if you do it the way it appears on the flow chart, you'll end up doing it wrong. The flow chart would need to be completely redesigned to represent Shadows correctly.



#8 Ratatoskr

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:01 AM

stormwolf27 said:

I know that, but it wasn't introduced to the actual flow chart till the most recent FAQ

And IMO they shouldn't have incorporated it in the flow charts the way they did, because they are misleading. The new flow charts make it look like bringing cards out of shadows is a normal framework event, but that's just not true. For example, the first response opportunity to a card coming out of shadows is with the player to the left of the player bringing out the card (just like it would be if bringing a card out of shadows was a player action). If bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, the first response opportunity would be with the First Player.



#9 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:15 AM

Ratatoskr said:

If bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, the first response opportunity would be with the First Player.
More to the point, if bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, all players would bring their cards out of shadows before any Responses could be triggered (including the one on the card brought out of Shadows), and you could Respond to the cards coming out of shadows in any order - not necessarily in the order in which they came out of shadows.



#10 LFenix

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

ktom said:

Ratatoskr said:

If bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, the first response opportunity would be with the First Player.

More to the point, if bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, all players would bring their cards out of shadows before any Responses could be triggered (including the one on the card brought out of Shadows), and you could Respond to the cards coming out of shadows in any order - not necessarily in the order in which they came out of shadows.

 

 

I assume that is not the case and it´s more an action than a framework event right? At least that´s what I thought…

 

Thanks for the explanation everyone. Really apreciated ;)



#11 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

Yes. The shadows rules tell you to treat each card that comes out of shadows as a separate action (complete with its own passive and response opportunity) after the phase begins, but before passives and responses to the phase beginning. So that's what you do, even those instructions are really hard to show on the general flow charts. 



#12 Korvac-V

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:54 PM

Sorry just to help clear things up, is Theon's response always there or is that also part of the while he is in the dead pile?



#13 ktom

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

Korvac-V said:

Sorry just to help clear things up, is Theon's response always there or is that also part of the while he is in the dead pile?
According to where the quotation marks are in the text, he only gains the Response while he is in the dead pile.

But since the Response puts him into play from your dead pile, the Response is useless to you unless he is in the dead pile anyway.



#14 Korvac-V

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 04:21 PM

So that would mean if using say bloodthirsty crew (win unoppossed challenge discard two cards from losing players deck) and they then discard a unique character then Theon could come back into play during the challenge phase?



#15 stormwolf27

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

Korvac-V said:

So that would mean if using say bloodthirsty crew (win unoppossed challenge discard two cards from losing players deck) and they then discard a unique character then Theon could come back into play during the challenge phase?

As long as he's in the dead pile, yes. It doesn't specify that the card has to be discarded during dominance, or specifically from Theon's ability. Just specifies that it be discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, and that it be a unique character.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#16 HastAttack

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:31 AM

We've been playing that counting dominance is the first action in that phase - I was under the impression that you could not do anything else prior to counting dominance strenght

The above comments suggest we have been playing incorrectly and that i.e. shadow actions occur before counting dominance, likewise Theon's response

BTW: Theon has a passive ability to get oponents to discard the top card of their deck at the beginning of domminance - but it is a Response to actually return Theon into play if an unique character is discarded …. don't whether that is relevent

 



#17 ktom

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:50 AM

HastAttack said:

We've been playing that counting dominance is the first action in that phase - I was under the impression that you could not do anything else prior to counting dominance strenght

The above comments suggest we have been playing incorrectly and that i.e. shadow actions occur before counting dominance, likewise Theon's response

While counting/awarding dominance happens before you can take player actions, the phase still has to begin, right? Shadow actions and passive/responses to the phase beginning, therefore, will happen before you get to counting/awarding dominance, which will happen before player actions. (The trick here is remembering that passives, responses, and shadow actions are not technically "player actions".) 

HastAttack said:

BTW: Theon has a passive ability to get oponents to discard the top card of their deck at the beginning of domminance - but it is a Response to actually return Theon into play if an unique character is discarded …. don't whether that is relevent
It's not really relevant because both passives and responses take place within other action windows - including the "begin phase" action window at the beginning of dominance.



#18 Khudzlin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:45 PM

Bringing cards out of shadows comes first, then "at the beginning of the phase" effects (like Theon or Jaime) and then you count dominance. Only then come player actions. The rule you had in mind is "no player actions before counting dominance" (there are none before standing cards or returning unspent gold either).






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