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How do you win as LS?!??!?


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#1 Darik

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

The topic says it all. I've tried Rebel Alliance, straight Jedi and Jedi plus Han. All I'm good at doing is losing to Sith control slowly and losing to imperial navy quickly. How the heck am I supposed to make any damage stick versus The Kiling Cold or even finish an attack versus Icetromper? Han seems like a great card but he is soooo fragile! LS in general seems very fragile, a well-timed Twist of Fate from the DS on defense can just wreck the whole game for LS. I lost four games in a row tonight as LS. 

The game seems heavily weighted toward DS right now and Desolation only seems to have made them stronger. Anyone winning against DS? If so, how?



#2 ScottieATF

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

Darik said:

The topic says it all. I've tried Rebel Alliance, straight Jedi and Jedi plus Han. All I'm good at doing is losing to Sith control slowly and losing to imperial navy quickly. How the heck am I supposed to make any damage stick versus The Kiling Cold or even finish an attack versus Icetromper? Han seems like a great card but he is soooo fragile! LS in general seems very fragile, a well-timed Twist of Fate from the DS on defense can just wreck the whole game for LS. I lost four games in a row tonight as LS. 

The game seems heavily weighted toward DS right now and Desolation only seems to have made them stronger. Anyone winning against DS? If so, how?

Plenty of people are winning with the Light Side.  Frankly I have not seen any of my play group, or the many players I play with online have the same issue as you are having.  Of the 40 games played in my most recent Monday Night tournament (4rds 10 players) 25 were won by the LS and only 15 by the DS. 

Have you tried not attacking the Killing Cold?  Presently it's ability only works on itself and 1 other objective.  Odds are you will always have a none Hoth target, and frankly most of the non-Hoth Objectives are more attractive targets because of thier always useful abilities.  Even if its ability get used, I don't mind trading 1 damage for a unit.  In the end less defenders is just fine with me.

Icetromper are brutal to be sure, but they only work against non-Vechiles meaning most of the RA is immune to thier ability.  Even when thier ability can be used there are ways to work around it.  If a unit is removed from the engagement, it can just attack a different objective.  It's a poweful stall ability but it isn't going to lock anything down.  Frankly it is a bad unit against the RA being a 2 cost for one icon.

Yes Han is fragile, so protect him..   LS has access to alot of Shielding and two Jedi Objective sets based around keeping characters alive either through Guardian of the Peace (which has great synergy with Questionable Contacts) or Old Bens Spirit.  That goes for every LS character.

I have a feeling that there are more important issues then the few brought up here because the ones you've brought up really aren't issues.

The RA wins through shock, awe, and speed (slight attrition with HW Emplacement)  They can put enough down on turn 1 to kill an objective easily if the opponent doesn't set up well enough,  I won two games in the above mentioned tournament with the Dial at 3 and 4, it can be just devestating.  The problem the RA can have is in winning edge battles.  But you can't lose an edge battle if there are no defenders, so Rebel Assault them prior to edge, attack multiple times, bring alot of non-edge reliant icon, or set up you strikes with an offense Ackbar.

Jedi does it through big units Voltron units brining the pain.  They can soop up Luke/Han/Yoda until a pure destruction machine, and they have the tools to protect them as well.  First turn Luke can be a game winner, but usually second turn Luke who is joining a GoP and 3PO is even stronger, as he can't be removed.  Jedi can even win edge battles without trickery.  And recur a big Jedi ditched that way for cheap with RoTJ, or enchancements with MfB. 



#3 Darik

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:58 AM

It is encouraging that so many others are winning with LS. This means good things for the overall design of the game. My big issue with LS is not having cards in play for very long versus Sith and not having any efficient defense against Navy. What makes a wise attack as LS in this game? I understand that Obi-Wan and Han etc. are good cards. But how do they win games? What is the process to get enough damage on DS objectives? They have great icons, but many of their blast icons are edge dependent and winning the edge battle is far from a given against the Sith and can be surprisingly tough against the Navy. I strike with these guys and then my opponent uses Force Lightning to obliterate them even when they have no damage on them. In one of our games, I had Han with Old Ben's Spirit on him by my turn two. My opponent had two Nightsisters out as defense. I attacked his Heart of the Empire with Han  and using Han's reaction and his targeted strike to killed off both Nightsisters. But on his next turn, he played Darth Vader with his light saber and double Force Choked on his turn to off my two Jedis in Hiding and burn off Old Ben's Spirit from Han. I now had no defenders and he attacked with Vader, using targeted strike to kill Han who was chilling at home. 

It is very discouraging. 

But the fact that others are winning gives me  A New Hope (heh, heh) that I'm just missing something about when to attack and with whom in what order. 

Thanks for any other specific tips. 



#4 Toqtamish

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:41 AM

Darik said:

But on his next turn, he played Darth Vader with his light saber and double Force Choked on his turn

 

Your opponent cheated, Force Choke is limit 1 per turn.



#5 ScottieATF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:29 AM

Darik said:

It is encouraging that so many others are winning with LS. This means good things for the overall design of the game. My big issue with LS is not having cards in play for very long versus Sith and not having any efficient defense against Navy. What makes a wise attack as LS in this game? I understand that Obi-Wan and Han etc. are good cards. But how do they win games? What is the process to get enough damage on DS objectives? They have great icons, but many of their blast icons are edge dependent and winning the edge battle is far from a given against the Sith and can be surprisingly tough against the Navy. I strike with these guys and then my opponent uses Force Lightning to obliterate them even when they have no damage on them. In one of our games, I had Han with Old Ben's Spirit on him by my turn two. My opponent had two Nightsisters out as defense. I attacked his Heart of the Empire with Han  and using Han's reaction and his targeted strike to killed off both Nightsisters. But on his next turn, he played Darth Vader with his light saber and double Force Choked on his turn to off my two Jedis in Hiding and burn off Old Ben's Spirit from Han. I now had no defenders and he attacked with Vader, using targeted strike to kill Han who was chilling at home. 

It is very discouraging. 

But the fact that others are winning gives me  A New Hope (heh, heh) that I'm just missing something about when to attack and with whom in what order. 

Thanks for any other specific tips. 

Well one your opponent did cheat.  FC is once per turn and Vaders reaction is also once per turn.

Secondly, so what you lost Han.  Your opponent just played out 7 resources in a turn meaniing he's likely locked out for playing much next turn.  He has no defenders and he has HotE out.  If you drop Luke and Trust, there goes Vader and most of Heart.  Obi Wan at the point will lock Vader down.  Yoda with the right enchancments is game at that point as well.  But even if you draw into nothing that good, your opponent just burned two FCs, locked himself out of his resources, just play any units you have and take back the force.  You aren't out of it just because you lost one good character.  You should have a bunch in the deck.



#6 Darik

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:32 AM

Now there's a useful tip. Thanks Toq.

But that happened in only one game. I still struggle to see how LS can do enough damage before the dial gets to 12. Icetrompers have even been shutting down my favorite combo with Princess Leia - sacrificing her during combat so my other units can strike twice. My opponent just kills her with Icetromper before any of my units have struck. 

On an average turn, I play two or three units and then attack with them. But this usually means I don't have enough high force value cards in hand to try and when the edge battle. This usually means my fighters in the vaunted Rebel Alliance deck have very few blast icons active since I lost the edge battle. Typically, my opponent exploits this loss of the edge battle by killing one of my low health fighters before it even strikes. 

I'm just sitting there scratching my head and watching the Death Star dial click up…



#7 ScottieATF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:43 AM

Darik said:

Now there's a useful tip. Thanks Toq.

But that happened in only one game. I still struggle to see how LS can do enough damage before the dial gets to 12. Icetrompers have even been shutting down my favorite combo with Princess Leia - sacrificing her during combat so my other units can strike twice. My opponent just kills her with Icetromper before any of my units have struck. 

On an average turn, I play two or three units and then attack with them. But this usually means I don't have enough high force value cards in hand to try and when the edge battle. This usually means my fighters in the vaunted Rebel Alliance deck have very few blast icons active since I lost the edge battle. Typically, my opponent exploits this loss of the edge battle by killing one of my low health fighters before it even strikes. 

I'm just sitting there scratching my head and watching the Death Star dial click up…

Don't attack with a non-Shielded Leia if there is an Icetromper on the board, if she isn't attacking she isn't a legal target for that ability..  I don't see a good reason to do that unless you want her to die right then.  Which if the rest of your force is exhausted is the move to make.



#8 Darik

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:07 AM

Perhaps part of the problem is that I try to attack every turn? I think I need to be a little more choosy about when to go attack, eh?



#9 ScottieATF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:08 AM

Darik said:

Perhaps part of the problem is that I try to attack every turn? I think I need to be a little more choosy about when to go attack, eh?

Sometimes yeah.  If you just dropped Luke and a ton of other units/enchancements.  And your opponent has a board that is dangerous to Luke if you don't win an edge battle, then no don't attack with a depleted hand that has no hope of winning an edge battle.   Why get into a fight that you can't win for no gain.  With the RA attack multiple objectives, don't bunch up.  You likely can't win a head to head edge battle, but you can win one or two if your opponent isn't willing to dump his hand or declare defenders because of what you have left to attack.  An unopposed Y-wing will deal three damage to an objective, that is enough to set it up for a RA kill on following turns.

I'm just worried about your overall evaluation of the board if you are attacking with Leia when your opponent has an Icetromper, and you don't want Leia to die at that time.  I do not understand why you would think to do that, and I think that and other such really blantant missteps are likely the majority of your issues.  Just to be honest.



#10 Darik

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

I fully agree that I'm making mistakes. That's why I'm asking all the questions, heh! It just seems tough to grasp in a game where if LS does nothing DS will win, that the LS is sometimes supposed to not attack. You're always on the clock as LS so it just seems like you should be attacking when you can - but perhaps not. Perhaps sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Although, sometimes I feel I should attack with Leia, the Y-wing, etc. while they are actually still alive. Sith has a habit of blasting my guys to pieces even when they aren't in combat, and sometimes when they've never even gotten a chance to attack. I play them, I decide not to attack and my Sith opponent kills them with events on his next turn.

But i will try to be more wise in when I send units to attack.



#11 Darik

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:17 AM

I just wanted to thank ScottieATF and Toq for your comments. I followed the advice and in a game yesterday decided to attack in small groups with my RA deck. In one fight, I lost the edge battle and Darth Vader killed an X-wing. But in the second engagement, my lone Y-wing went in and won the edge battle and got to do 3 damage against a DS objective (The Emperor's Web.) I then had yet another Y-wing go attack another objective and put 3 damage on it. On my next turn, I played Home One and Princess Leia (Fleet Command is a GREAT enhancement for RA) and I attacked with Home One and the two Y-wings to finish off my opponent's Fall of the Jedi. Using Home One's Reaction, I also finished off The Emperor's Web. After that engagement ended, I killed off my own Princess Leia to draw two cards with You're My Only Hope. I had intended to use Home One and the Y-wings to attack again but I drew a copy of Rebel Assault and just played that to kill off my opponent's 3rd objective to win!

Huzzah!

That strategy about not bunching up as RA is a great one. Also, I realized that Force Choke can't work on my Vehicles so I tried not to play Leia (or any other Character units) until I had something important to do with them - thus giving my opponent fewer targets for Force Choke.

Thanks everyone!



#12 Holliday88

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:13 AM

Darik, it has taken me many games to finally come to the same conclusion you just did. As LS you can't just attack willy nilly every turn. You kind of have to set your board, get a good hand and then go. Can't really worry about the dial too much as it is very possible to destroy 3 objectives in two turns.


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#13 Hida77

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:57 AM

Only playing Vehicles hardly limits the targets for force choke.  I am surprised that Vader hasnt started choking himself or his cohorts to kill Ywings in your area, its a tactic I regularly use to totally blunt most RA decks as Sith.  Also, Espo troopers are the most annoying characters for RA, since they will reliably stifle the early rush.  Turn 1 big guy or two smaller guys with an espo or two both controls the "hurr Rebel Assualt" and deals with the X and Y Wings with relative ease, giving you time to setup and avoid getting Ackbar-bombed.


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#14 hundreds

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

Holliday88 said:

Darik, it has taken me many games to finally come to the same conclusion you just did. As LS you can't just attack willy nilly every turn. You kind of have to set your board, get a good hand and then go. Can't really worry about the dial too much as it is very possible to destroy 3 objectives in two turns.

I second this. The death star dial means nothing especially if you bide your time a bit and send in your attacks ONLY when you are fairly positive of actually doing any damage. Sure, you can't always be sure of an edge battle win - that is sometimes part of the risk - but when you go in for an attack as either side, you should always be playing out all of the visible possibilities and probabilities in front of you. For example, if you attack with 2 units, think about how you might respond to that as the opponent. Which units of his would YOU defend with. Can those units make the battle null, or a complete loss, by winning an edge battle? If the risk is just too high, you sit back and plan. Sometimes defending at the appropriate time can cause your DS opponent with read you as being defenseLESS. He might get cocky and lash out only to suffer a retaliating blow from the LS on their next turn.

Also, you might not know exactly what your opponent has in his hand or up his sleeve, but you can make some educated guesses about that too (how many cards he has, how many resources he has left open, etc.).

I have personally won many games as the LS. The back and forth is always pretty grueling, but then, that's just the way the game is.



#15 ScottieATF

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:50 PM

Hida77 said:

Only playing Vehicles hardly limits the targets for force choke.  I am surprised that Vader hasnt started choking himself or his cohorts to kill Ywings in your area, its a tactic I regularly use to totally blunt most RA decks as Sith.  Also, Espo troopers are the most annoying characters for RA, since they will reliably stifle the early rush.  Turn 1 big guy or two smaller guys with an espo or two both controls the "hurr Rebel Assualt" and deals with the X and Y Wings with relative ease, giving you time to setup and avoid getting Ackbar-bombed.

Who said Vader wasn't…

Vechiles only very much limits the impact of Force Choke.  First off it Vader isn't out it's a dead card, and even when he's out it becomes a very situational card.  Finishing off Home One for the cost of one damage on Vader is a great play, but general attrition use it becomes very meh.



#16 Darik

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:31 AM

Yeah, I've seen Vader choke himself, etc. But as ScottieATF said, that means he's using Force Choke to do nothing but trigger Vader's reaction for one damage. That means it is one card (and one damage on Vader or someone) for one card - my Y-wing. It is no longer a two-for-one trade in the DS favor. Mind you, Vader still killed plenty of my 1 health unit's when my opponent played Dark Precognition or even Force Lightning. But it is a bit better than the Force Choke of doom combo I was seeing all the time when I just played units willy nilly.



#17 SmokeyJ

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

Hida77 said:

Only playing Vehicles hardly limits the targets for force choke.  I am surprised that Vader hasnt started choking himself or his cohorts to kill Ywings in your area, its a tactic I regularly use to totally blunt most RA decks as Sith.  Also, Espo troopers are the most annoying characters for RA, since they will reliably stifle the early rush.  Turn 1 big guy or two smaller guys with an espo or two both controls the "hurr Rebel Assualt" and deals with the X and Y Wings with relative ease, giving you time to setup and avoid getting Ackbar-bombed.

I can totally see Vader choking random chuds on his own side, but is his self force choking fetish canon?



#18 LordofCake

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:01 PM

I've got to agree with the OP here. 

I purchased the boxed set, and the two expansions last week. A friend and I watch the video's, read the rules, and checked the forums for help. We decided to use the recommended noob decks from the manual, Sith vs Jedi.

So far, we have played 7 matches. I played Sith the first time out. The game went a total of 9 rounds, with the LS throwing out Luke and Obi-wan in two seperate turns. However, after enduring a loss of one objective, I played "There is no escape," and followed it up by dominating the game for the next 4 turns.

Thinking that my friend was just complaining, I played 3 matches as the Jedi. First two matches I lasted 6 rounds each, with the DS playing character after character, while I watched with only character based events and enhancements in my hands, both times. I believe I was able to play Yoda in the second match, but he was the only character to be played during that entire match. And during the fourth, the game ended in 4 turns, as the Sith layed down Darth Vader, a TIE Advanced, and 2 Night Sisters in the first two rounds. Two rounds of Luke being killed right away, and The Redemption being destroyed in battle, the game was over. I lost again.

We switched again, with my friend playing the Jedi deck for two matches with similar results. 

Final match, we got creative. I left him PICK HIS HAND for the first round, and shuffle the rest of the command deck. Playing by normal rules, 6 rounds, Luke, Obi-wan, Red 5, and Return of the Jedi later, I had beaten him with relative ease. He didn't even take an objective (granted, he was after the objective that would have won the game if captured), but the Sith dominated the match.

We plan on running the Imperial Navy against the Rebel Alliance next…but from what I have read, I don't have any hopes that the LS is a winning deck straight out of the box.

 



#19 Hida77

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:50 AM

LordofCake said:

I've got to agree with the OP here. 

I purchased the boxed set, and the two expansions last week. A friend and I watch the video's, read the rules, and checked the forums for help. We decided to use the recommended noob decks from the manual, Sith vs Jedi.

So far, we have played 7 matches. I played Sith the first time out. The game went a total of 9 rounds, with the LS throwing out Luke and Obi-wan in two seperate turns. However, after enduring a loss of one objective, I played "There is no escape," and followed it up by dominating the game for the next 4 turns.

Thinking that my friend was just complaining, I played 3 matches as the Jedi. First two matches I lasted 6 rounds each, with the DS playing character after character, while I watched with only character based events and enhancements in my hands, both times. I believe I was able to play Yoda in the second match, but he was the only character to be played during that entire match. And during the fourth, the game ended in 4 turns, as the Sith layed down Darth Vader, a TIE Advanced, and 2 Night Sisters in the first two rounds. Two rounds of Luke being killed right away, and The Redemption being destroyed in battle, the game was over. I lost again.

We switched again, with my friend playing the Jedi deck for two matches with similar results. 

Final match, we got creative. I left him PICK HIS HAND for the first round, and shuffle the rest of the command deck. Playing by normal rules, 6 rounds, Luke, Obi-wan, Red 5, and Return of the Jedi later, I had beaten him with relative ease. He didn't even take an objective (granted, he was after the objective that would have won the game if captured), but the Sith dominated the match.

We plan on running the Imperial Navy against the Rebel Alliance next…but from what I have read, I don't have any hopes that the LS is a winning deck straight out of the box.

 

You are doing it wrong.  Sith is very effective, but also very beatable, but there are things you have to learn in order to make it happen. Also, out of Core alone, Sith are easily the faction most likely to win given equal play skill, but are far from unbeatable.  I would recommend getting antoher core set and the expansions and building your own decks.  Sith are still powerful, but not nearly as dominant as they were with just the core set. 

As an example, I dont know the full detail of each of you games, but just to pick a few obvious mistakes:

- Playing all your big guys out there without a C-3PO or Counterstroke (or another copy of said characters) is just asking to get reset on. You guys walked into that trap

- Attacking Heart of the Empire is a mistake unless you have units that can do more than 4 blast damage in one strike. You will almost never take it, especially once he plays a single defense fleet.  It is much easier to put a little bit of damage on 2 5 health objectives, since split attacks are harder to effectively defend.  Turning every battle into "everybody vs everybody" almost never works for LS unless you are already winning.  Taking heart is much more likely if you have already whittled it down a bit and gained a critical advantage at a key point of the game, it is otherwise a trap.

- Not having the cards in hand to draw out Twists is a mistake.  It is very easy to throw a limited resource that you held instead of mindlessly playing first and a low value card second to see how your opponent acts.  If he looks like hes going all in (or does) then go all in save 1 card.  This is a judgement thing, you just have to be sure that if he does twist you can either detect it or have a backup plan.

- Plan for losing every edge.  I played a game the other night were I lost all 7 edge battles but still won the game because I went in assuming I would lose the edge, but that it wouldnt ultimately matter. Shielding helps a TON for this, and is why you see it more heavily on the LS.

- Annoy him with tactics icons by attacking multiple objectives separately. Can't teach this without the cards, but it is a very effective way to give you undefended attacks.


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#20 LordofCake

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

So then what you are saying confirms my suspicions. With one Core set, the Sith are a dominant force. You're recommending we get another Core set, and mixing sets to create decks. Rather than use the provided 8 objective sets, as prescribed in the manual.

In a game designed for mixing factions, it makes sense that the decks ould become more balanced, unlike the single faction decks. I can't imagine an all Jedi deck being of any relevance in any situation. 

Thank you for the suggestions, since I am new to the game, I'll have to take your word on everything.

Additionally, how do multiple sets work? Can I purchase two core sets and expect to be able to use both sets against someone who has only purchased one core set? Or are both players provided access to all availible cards?






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