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#1 cleardave

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:44 PM

It's been a little while since I've seen this discussed; in a 100pt match, can you get a lot of utility out of Han Solo as a YT-1300 pilot, and if you're consistently successful with him, what are you doing?

I was mulling this over with my opponent at a game night at our local FLGS.  We played a few matches, switching lists between so we could each play both Rebels and Imperials.  On my Rebel list, I ran the Lando/Nien action donation combo, and on his run, he was using Chewie as the pilot to absorb critical hits.

I fully see the use in both Lando and Chewie as pilots to use the YT-1300 as a support ship, but I can't imagine how I could get results with Han, for his points.  Maybe it's a play style hang up for me, because I can play a competitive game involving a YT-1300 without him using either Chewie or Lando.  Han just seems like he's missing something.  In reality, it's probably me that's missing something with Han, so I'm hoping someone here can open my eyes to why Captain Solo isn't a total miss as far as movie characters go.



#2 ScottieATF

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:40 PM

cleardave said:

It's been a little while since I've seen this discussed; in a 100pt match, can you get a lot of utility out of Han Solo as a YT-1300 pilot, and if you're consistently successful with him, what are you doing?

I was mulling this over with my opponent at a game night at our local FLGS.  We played a few matches, switching lists between so we could each play both Rebels and Imperials.  On my Rebel list, I ran the Lando/Nien action donation combo, and on his run, he was using Chewie as the pilot to absorb critical hits.

I fully see the use in both Lando and Chewie as pilots to use the YT-1300 as a support ship, but I can't imagine how I could get results with Han, for his points.  Maybe it's a play style hang up for me, because I can play a competitive game involving a YT-1300 without him using either Chewie or Lando.  Han just seems like he's missing something.  In reality, it's probably me that's missing something with Han, so I'm hoping someone here can open my eyes to why Captain Solo isn't a total miss as far as movie characters go.

What is it that you feel heis missing?

Chewbacca has good staying power because of it's ability, but he can't take the Chewbacca upgrade where others can.

Lando offers action economy but at a high price  taking up the points that would be making advantage of that action economy.

Han basically gets a free action everyround.  An action that can be used on multiple attack rolls, and in conjunction with other actions.  Han with a gunner type upgrade, which is powerful upgrade on any YT, deals alot of damage.  You need to get good damage out put from the big ships as they take up so nany points.



#3 ForceM

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:06 PM

Honestly i don't see much sense in him either. I have used Lando and Chewie. They have very useful skills whereas Han's is very very situational and i would prefer the double wookie (chewie and gunner) over him any day. His pilot skill is of course higher, but as we all know this is not always an advantage. Also he takes too many points. If you want upgrades you will be running a two-ship which i personalky don't like. Too squishy, too little firepower even with him plus gunner…

i am not even a YT-hater, i think the ship is quite fine, but Han…


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#4 hothie

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:48 AM

Han Shoots First is a very powerful list, and one that I have cycled through many iterations of Imperial squads trying to find one that will beat it consistently.

Han Solo with Chewbacca and Gunner
Rookie Pilot X2

This comes to 97 points. With the other 3 points, I have seen Marksmanship on Han or droids on the X-wings. I think R2 Astromechs on the X-wings and Draw Their Fire on Han is the best combo for those 3 points, but that's my opinion.

I have spent a lot of time trying to devise an Imperial squad that can hang with this squad, and only now do I think I have a definitive one. I'll have to test it out next weekend, but if it works like I think it will, I may end up taking it to the Regional Tournaments. I do expect to face Han Shoots First in some form, though. Although the nice thing about Wave 2 is that there are so many possibilities for squads that people will just play whatever fits their play style best, and those squads will be just as competitive with or without Han.

But make no mistake, Han with Chewbacca and a Gunner is not something to overlook, unless you happen to be a Rodian bounty hunter.



#5 Picasso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:41 AM

You guys are missing something.  I agree that Han alone is not that great.  However the second you start putting upgrades on him he could be the best offensive pilot in the game.  I have found that Han has a HUGE learning curve.  The other pilots are designed as support ships something a rebel player is used to.  Han is built more like an imperial pilot where his pilot ability is ALL offense.  First the biggest advantage in this game is the ability to reroll dice. Also the dice favor the attacker.  Yes when using Han's ability he MUST reroll all the dice he can but mathematically you should roll two hits with three attack dice most of the time.  This ability all but guarantees you are doing damage every time he shoots.  Combine this with a 360 firing ship and you are always hitting something. Now start adding upgrades.  First thing is Han's ability extends to ALL attacks he makes.  So if you are a missile player you now have a reroll for that.  If you add a gunner, reroll for him.  If you add a card like marksmanship that modifies ALL attacks you make in a round, not to mention marksmanship gives you a huge chance at getting a crit, you can now reroll as well as change focuses almostguaranteeing dropping a ship a turn with support ship's fire added in.  Now he is the only large ship pilot with a nine pilot skill.  So he shoots first most of the time. And moves last.  Also because of the 360 you don't need to fly straight at your opponent. They have to come at you.  Fly away from your opponent. Hell fly a circle around the table it doesn't matter.  If you want to make him a support ship give him swarm tactics and boost one of your other fighters.  A y-wing shooting at a nine with an ion turret is not half bad.  The worst crits Han can take are the ones that remove his upgrades and pilot abilities.  If you give him Chewie as a copilot that's a crit you can avoid. If you give Han determination you can ignor most of those crits.  I've seen people put ptl on Han. This is a bad idea. First the falcon only has two actions, target lock and focus. Han already has a reroll. So target lock is useless. You could argue for the title card and take the evade every turn but having stress makes your moves predictable.  Also stress is hard to wash off the falcon.

I haven't lost a lot of games with Han. I think two.  Also I've been flying large base ships since November and there is a giant learning curve with them. Han has the largest because people over think it or want more out of him then he can do.  KISS is the best method of attack with him. 



#6 Cid_MCDP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:51 AM

Maaaaan, I thought I replied to this earlier, but I guess I was a picon off the surface. 

Short version- I think guys who played Empire more than Rebels intially have a better opinion of Han Solo than folks who played Rebels more at the start. Those of us who played Rebels in Wave 1 built lists centered around staying alive and token passing. In our eyes, we see more potential in Lando- Nien Nunb lists than Solo lists. Guys who played Empire value the offensive ability because that was the bread and butter of the TIE Swarm, so they see the potential in that. 

I think Solo's fine, but I'll admit, when I opened my YT-1300 and looked through the cards the first time, the combo that jumped out at me wasn't Solo + Marksmanship. Again though, I'm mainly a Rebel player and always have been- it doesn't mean Solo's bad, it just means that if I want to use him, I'm probably going to have to abandon the mindset and experience base I've built-up since I started playing this game to make him work for me against other people of similar competitive level and experience. 

 

 



#7 cleardave

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:04 AM

Picasso said:

I haven't lost a lot of games with Han. I think two.  Also I've been flying large base ships since November and there is a giant learning curve with them. Han has the largest because people over think it or want more out of him then he can do.  KISS is the best method of attack with him. 

It sounds like what you're basically saying is that Han is more of a lone-wolf type character than someone you keep with your other ships for synergies or other combos.

I've run him before using Luke or Gunner to maximize his shooting.  It certainly does the job, but I'm always left wondering what a good support list would be with the leftover ~40pts or so.  If you've got a few pointers there, I'd love to here it.  I always like to find uses for all the options in games, and this is no different.

It's nice to break out of your comfort zone of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" with list building (or deck building in a card game) and try things that don't normally appeal to your playstyle.  Sometimes you stumble upon some new tech or a gimmick that actually becomes more fun to play than you thought it would.



#8 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:09 AM

cleardave said:

Picasso said:

 

I haven't lost a lot of games with Han. I think two.  Also I've been flying large base ships since November and there is a giant learning curve with them. Han has the largest because people over think it or want more out of him then he can do.  KISS is the best method of attack with him. 

 

 

It sounds like what you're basically saying is that Han is more of a lone-wolf type character than someone you keep with your other ships for synergies or other combos.

I've run him before using Luke or Gunner to maximize his shooting.  It certainly does the job, but I'm always left wondering what a good support list would be with the leftover ~40pts or so.  If you've got a few pointers there, I'd love to here it.  I always like to find uses for all the options in games, and this is no different.

It's nice to break out of your comfort zone of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" with list building (or deck building in a card game) and try things that don't normally appeal to your playstyle.  Sometimes you stumble upon some new tech or a gimmick that actually becomes more fun to play than you thought it would.

Not quite a lone-wolf. Han is still a big, soft target, so he really needs someone to run interference--or, if your opponent is really just determined to murder Han, he needs some escorts that can wreck your opponent's fleet in the 3-4 rounds it will take to bring him down.

But I think Cid is on the money. If you're used to flying Wave 1 Rebels and messing around with the action economy, Han might not be the thing in the Falcon blister that gets your motor running (and that's okay, because Chewie and Lando are also really good at what they do). But for those who tend to think in terms of simply bringing the biggest guns to the table, Han offers guaranteed damage every round, and a lot of it. 



#9 Ismar

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:11 AM

I usually take Biggs with Han.  It's like adding another 3 hull and 2 shields to the Falcon.  I buff him with Stealth Device and R2F2, to increase his defense and let him stay around longer to allow Han to clean-out the enemy ships.  Has worked well so far.



#10 dandirk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:25 AM

I think Han is a very good pilot, especially for newer players to large ships.  As has been mentioned, he is a lone wolf due to his non-support ability.

This is actually a good thing, you really just fly him in circles focus firing and mopping up with your support crafts.

Honestly I don't know why you wouldn't run a gunner on a YT.  IMO it makes the YT worth its points offensively and doesn't detract much defensively.  Han just adds a bump to your per attack damage ability.

As for supporting ships for Han, I would say 2 x-wings.  They are the best all-around ships imo which work well with Han as you can split your forces a bit while still being able to focus fire (obviously formation flying makes it easier to focus fire).



#11 Keffisch

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:27 AM

Granted, I've only played the list 4 times but Han + Gunner with Biggs tricked out with SD + R2-F2 feels so disgustingly broken. :)



#12 Picasso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:54 AM

I don't like running Biggs with Han. Lando, yes.  What I've found is that Biggs eats a missile looses stealth and maybe takes a crit. For the points you are better off with two xwings.  I good player is going to shoot down all the support ships first so that it is less enemies attacking you in the shooting phase.  All Biggs does is draw attention to the fact that you need to kill off the fighter support first. A heavy gun on a slave one will crush Biggs. Two, and he is done for. Also Biggs needs to stay at range one of a ship to use his ability. I've made him fly over proximity mines and go "wait! Wait!  AAAAGHH!!!!……"  Two generic fighters have the option to go wherever they want. An Awing with a missile can put down that pesky tie named pilot.  Also Han will struggle with ships he doesn't one shot after his fighters are gone.  Also even if your opponent shoots down your falcon, they will have what, two maybe three ships against your two fighters. Which will be without damage cause your opponent has done nothing but shoot Han. If those two ships are y-wings with ions, that's game. Btw I watched four y-wings with turrets ion a four ship squad to death. Way ALL your options.  I gots my list for regionals and it is a killer.



#13 ForceM

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:42 AM

@Hothie

I have beaten this exact same list you propose there, with R2's and DTF. My list was:

Krassis Trelix with HLC

Howlrunner with Stealth device.

3 Academy Ties.

Basically it was Krassis killing an X-Wing by Turn two, the mini-swarm then took out the other by turn 3 (with a nice rear arc shot from Krassis too). They had killed my leading Academy, then Han started opening up on Howlrunner and didnt do her any damage despite all rerolls for two turns (thank you steatlh device and evade tokens… And hot green dice). The academy ties started nagging on the falcon's shields during these two turns. I then took two damage to Howlrunner, but the turn after i just crashed her into the Falcon and positioned the other two Ties around for rerolls. That was also the Turn i had Krassis in position again… Because i had to go to the map edge before and didn't have any angle on the falcon the few turns my Ties fought the Falcon. I then had two good turns of HLC fire into the Falcon, He switched his aim to Krassis too but did one damage per turn twice, and didn't get his gunner reroll. Then he just exploded under concentrated fire. Noteworthy is that i didn't roll a single crit on him and didn't trigger Chewie… That was unlucky of course for him.

It was a difficult game but i planned to isolate him from the beginning, and i knew exactly that those X-Wings would not last long. Krassis scored huge hits all game long and the first turns i aditionally buffed her with Howlrunner. Your list though is probably one of the best you can field using Han, no doubt about it!

You know going first is a nice thing too, but throwing ties in Hans way to deny him actions ( and sometimes targets too) is very easy to do in fact. For me he is too much of a gamble. I rolled lucky two times and that cost him the game. If he would have killed Howl, the game looks different of course, but it didn't happen… Chewie has a 100% useful ability, and lando hands out tokens, which is also better than an all-dice reroll because it is more flexible if you ask me.



#14 hothie

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:54 AM

To be sure, a Firespray with 4 TIEs will be a contender for the top Imperial squad. There are some very solid lists with this combo. It is one of the few squads that has a chance to beat Han, so I'm not saying Han will win every time. But this happened to me a few weeks ago:

I taught one of my coworkers how to play. We played a quick 60 or so point game so he could get maneuvering, actions, etc down. His second game, he played Han Shoots First, and I played a squad that I had designed to beat it. He won that game handily. It was his second game, ever. And he beat me with a squad I made for beating that squad. Granted, we didn't play with asteroids, as I wanted him to get the feel of maneuvering the large ship first before subjecting him to trying to maneuver around asteroids with it. We played again, with asteroids, and I won that one, but it was down to his Xwings vs my TIE Advanced, and with some astute maneuvering and barrel roling, I was able to take both of his Xwings down. Honestly, I shouldn't have won that match. And against Picasso, I know I wouldn't have.

Which brings me to my next point. What Picasso said about beating Han Shoots First is spot on. You have to take the Xwings out first, while trying to mitigate some of the damage that Han dishes out. Honestly, if I can spend an evade token to avoid all damage in Han's first attack, I won't spend it. I would much rather take 1 damage than have him be able to use Gunner to attack a second time. Unless of course I only have 1 damage left, in which case I'll spend the evade token. I've found, in playing against this squad, that if I can only take 1 damage on Han's first attack, that's what I try to do, in order to keep him from using Gunner.

Han is a very powerful offensive force, especially when teamed with a gunner. If you learn how to use him, you'll win more games than you lose with him. I thought it was funny the comparisons earlier in the thread of Han to Imperial Swarms, because Han was trained at the Imperial Academy. :)



#15 Picasso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

@forceM

that is a similar list to the one I've struggled against. That heavy gun is a killer.  The way I've beaten it is by stacking the crits on the Firespray and attacking it first.  Honestly I haven't bumped the falcon against a tie in a while. However getting that ship to bump is huge.  Also the X-wings shoot before the ties so you should be able to bring the Firespray down quick. That's what I try to do.  I've also shot down all the ties first but that game was difficult. 



#16 Picasso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:25 AM

I need to read when the site tells me that someone else posted.

hothie is right. I think he hit on something that I haven't talked much about.  The list is not difficult to fly.  You are always shooting and it doesn't take much to fly around small squads.  I think this squad is great for beginners. 

Now bumping. I look at it this way. Bumping is one less ship shooting at me.  I don't think Han needs an action to be dangerous. The action just makes him brutal. 

I could be wrong.  Also four missile toting A-wings can get the falcon quick. It's the x-wings shooting them before they shoot. 



#17 Kelvan

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:32 AM

My Han list is Han w/ Gunner, Chewbacca, Swarm Tactics, and MF and 2x Rookie Pilots.

 

It's nice to have two ships with 3attack and focus to destroy a ship on the other side. I expect 3-4 damage out of those 2 ships and that could kill an eyeball, a squint or an A wing. Not bad.

 

The list I run against Han w/ Rookies is Bounty Hunter w/ Gunner, Vader w/ Concussion Missiles and Swarm Tactics, Night beast, and Academy ties.



#18 dandirk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

hothie said:

Which brings me to my next point. What Picasso said about beating Han Shoots First is spot on. You have to take the Xwings out first, while trying to mitigate some of the damage that Han dishes out. Honestly, if I can spend an evade token to avoid all damage in Han's first attack, I won't spend it. I would much rather take 1 damage than have him be able to use Gunner to attack a second time. Unless of course I only have 1 damage left, in which case I'll spend the evade token. I've found, in playing against this squad, that if I can only take 1 damage on Han's first attack, that's what I try to do, in order to keep him from using Gunner.

I think this is an excellent point, one that if my friends ever let me be Imperial… I would use.

The whole point of Han + gunner is the high % of 1 or more damage.  As a rule with Han I always reroll on a single hit, just cause I know if I whiff I have 3 more tries.

Naturally everyone wants to avoid any damage, but you have to take those knocks cause it could be worse then 1 damage.



#19 hothie

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:41 AM

Right, Han will get his attack roll, and I will get my defense roll. He rolls 3 hits, I roll 2 evades and I have an evade token, I won't spend it. Because if I do spend it, Han will get another attack and reroll, and this time I will only have my defense dice to fall back upon. And as previously mentioned, the dice favor the attacker. I can handle Han only dishing out 1 damage per turn. It's far better than the alternative. One damage won't kill a TIE in one turn, but 3 will.



#20 Picasso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:39 PM

With what Hothie just stated, that is the best part of putting Marksmanship on Han, that last hit you have to take is a crit.  I read someplace on this blog that "wave two is about stress."  Disagree.  Wave two is about crits. I love me some heavy gun with a merc copilot and marksmanship.  






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