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Eldar with 40 plus wounds?


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#1 Steel Praetorian

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

Does anyone else find it strange that every Eldar character listed in the Outer Reaches has more wounds than any Space Marine? Way more, almost twice as much as any Space Marine?



#2 DJSunhammer

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

You can't have a boss level enemy that dies in one hit.



#3 Cryhavok

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:30 AM

I had a player's dice explode into a righteous wrath of 166 damage. It was the first shot fired at the boss. In this game you can one hit anything with enough luck. Having forty wounds instead of twenty does not prevent a player from one hitting a boss.

#4 Zappiel

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

indeed…..the weaknesses of the system are becoming glaring……….



#5 Plushy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

Zappiel said:

indeed…..the weaknesses of the system are becoming glaring……….

The thing is, 40kRPG really works best at low-level. Stuff like Dark Heresy, Only War, or the Fantasy that it evolved from.

Life is cheap, everything is lethal. It's gritty and fast. When you push it into the upper echelons of what it can do, things start to fall apart. Massive piles of Talents make everything a bit of a slog. Fights in Deathwatch seem like they would be cinematic affairs, but instead become a game of whoever shoots first. It just isn't what the system was built for.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#6 Shadow Walker

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

Plushy: That is why we need second edition of DW [more streamlined, less crunchy, that really allow for cinematic battles].



#7 DJSunhammer

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:43 AM

Cryhavok said:

I had a player's dice explode into a righteous wrath of 166 damage. It was the first shot fired at the boss. In this game you can one hit anything with enough luck. Having forty wounds instead of twenty does not prevent a player from one hitting a boss.

That is true, but having twice as many wounds does make it much less likely to happen.



#8 Alekzanter

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:18 AM

As a GM, I'm not in the habit of telling my Players how many Wounds their opponents have. An Eldar with 40 Wounds might fail a Dodge, but if he only takes a few points of Damage I might say he Dodges, nearly completely avoiding the attack by taking a mere scratch. Sure, Players read published material, and later comment during a game session "Oh yeah, I remember reading about this guy! He's got 40 Wounds, but we should be able to gak him quite quickly." This is why I prefer NPC profiles and histories that do not provide stats, or NPCs of my own devising.

From a games mechanic perspective: yes, it's whack.
From a GM's perspective: anything and everything is as I choose to have it appear, as is or completely altered.



#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:30 AM

Cryhavok said:

I had a player's dice explode into a righteous wrath of 166 damage. It was the first shot fired at the boss. In this game you can one hit anything with enough luck. Having forty wounds instead of twenty does not prevent a player from one hitting a boss.

 

With post-errata RF rules, I think this astronomically unlike to happen -- you would have to roll 8 or 9 10s in a row.



#10 Adeptus-B

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:50 AM

A more 'elegant' solution to keeping the Boss Monster from being One-Shotted is to make him 'Touched By The Fates'. I prefer that to giving a skinny guy more Wounds than a bull grox…



#11 Cryhavok

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

Adeptus-B said:

A more 'elegant' solution to keeping the Boss Monster from being One-Shotted is to make him 'Touched By The Fates'. I prefer that to giving a skinny guy more Wounds than a bull grox…

This Seconded.

There are a ton of ways to make a boss harder to kill than just piling on more wounds. Personally I prefer designing the enounter to make the terrain very hard for the players to fight in. I prefer things that can be overcome to make it harder. Tons of wounds just seems like a cop-out to me. Bosses I design have the same wound limitations players do, and often end up being much harder to kill than the prewritten bosses



#12 Hrathen

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

I know it isn't entirely realistic, but I just thought I would point out that in the table top game a Space marien (even a vetran) only has 1 wound.  While an Eldar Hero has 3 wounds.  The Eldar have lower toughness and weaker armor, so those 3 wounds are easier to do, but they are there.


Putting an end to this distructive conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.

#13 Face Eater

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

Also, how many sound constitutions can you buy as a Space Marine? Cause I'm pretty sure it's a fair amount, just because no one buy's em it doesn't mean that NPC's won't. Especially if they are thousands of years old imortals space elves. Plus, as Hrathen said, it doesn't actually make you physically larger that's already counted for in strength and toughness scores that probably are still much high meaning wounds are lost much quicker on the Eldar.



#14 crisaron

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:37 AM

Hrathen said:

I know it isn't entirely realistic, but I just thought I would point out that in the table top game a Space marien (even a vetran) only has 1 wound.  While an Eldar Hero has 3 wounds.  The Eldar have lower toughness and weaker armor, so those 3 wounds are easier to do, but they are there.

 

Am I the only one? No marines with only 1 wounds yet Eldar with 3? This guy knows about as much on 40k TT then I know about… oh well. pensativo

lol

 

Anyway, I alwasy tought that NPC/creatures where never developped with a fullness in mind. They give you stats and that is it when most intelligent monster and NPC woudl mostly attack in a situation that fits them. There is only that lictor from I can't remember withc book, if you used it in an open field with super tall grass, it could run at super speed and be untaouchable by the players.

Never could bring a DW game far enough to bring this sucker in…



#15 Adeptus-B

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:17 AM

In the Tabletop game, the heroes of pretty much every faction have 3 Wounds. This can just as easily be interpreted as the TT equivelant of 'Fate Points'…



#16 macd21

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:47 AM

Cryhavok said:

This Seconded.

There are a ton of ways to make a boss harder to kill than just piling on more wounds. Personally I prefer designing the enounter to make the terrain very hard for the players to fight in. I prefer things that can be overcome to make it harder. Tons of wounds just seems like a cop-out to me. Bosses I design have the same wound limitations players do, and often end up being much harder to kill than the prewritten bosses

 

While this is true, the stats in question were designed with publication in mind. That means the writer had a few considerations he had to keep in mind that don't apply to you when you're making up an NPC's stats - namely that the reader isn't going to be as familiar with them as you are with yours.

When you create an NPC you'll have a certain concept in mind, certain abilities and/or drawbacks you want to implement. Someone reading an NPC statblock sees a lot of numbers and words. 40k statblocks are notoriously complicated as it is. It's easy to miss a talent, trait or piece of equipment when you're in the middle of a session and you're trying to keep track of everything the PCs and NPCs are doing. So rather than making the NPC reliant on one or more specific geegaws or weird abilities that might be overlooked in the heat of battle you can just plonk '40 wounds' down and leave it at that.

You can always abstract it as any one of the possible ass-saving mechanics that could have been put down instead. The PC causes 20 wounds with one hit = "a shimmering shield of energy absorbs the force of the blow"/"he throws himself to one side at the last second"/"the emperor must be smiling on him, because your shot glanced off a plate of armour and exploded against the wall" etc.



#17 Azure Consul

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:05 AM

There are a total of 12 Sound Constitution increases that can be purchased between General Space Marine Advances and Deathwatch Advances. With 18 as a base and 1d5 a random factor you can end up with 31-35 Wounds total unless your a Storm Warden which than it is increased by +2 Wounds. Looking in all the printed material for Space Marines there is not Chapter Advancement table that has Sound Constitution as a talent that can be purchased. So the only way to get this is either throught the General Adavancement or Deathwatch Advancement. Most NPC listed Space Marines have 22-30 Wounds. The only exception to this is the Watch Captain Esteban de Dominova who has 40… somehow. 

Aside from the these facts the Eldar listed are leaders of their respective groups. Ebahn Lauma is built simliar to an Exarch however he is very much a Corsair. Erandel Voidsinger has 42 Wounds which is very close to the generic listed Autarch in Koronus Bestiary. The Harlequin Ailill Nuada does have a unusally high number of wounds, but she is a Harlequin. Weird is their middle name. The only one I object to is the 64 on the Haemonculus Vakillar U'riss. She has more wounds than a Necron Lord and I find that hard to believe even with the extensive modifications that she has under gone.

More over they all still have the traditional Eldar Unnatural Agility trait. Eldar I thought at least relied on their natural dexetriy and superior understand of tactics to those of their enemies. Having the second most advance technological base also helps too. 



#18 Lunareclipse123

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:57 AM

Well, I don't have Outer Reaches, but let me share my experience of running an Eldar Master level adversary - The kill team was at the top end of rank 2 and had just hit Respected renown (although because their ship was hit by Dark Eldar raiders they didn't have time for arming with anything but Standard Issue gear). Cutting to the end of the adventure, they were facing down the Archon of the Dark Eldar force.

I gave him 20 wounds, because that was as many as I could justify for an unaugmented alien who, while very long-lived, was only about as tough as an elite human. However, he had 55 agility, Unnatural Agility x2, dodge +20, Step Aside, and an 80% power field (that would overload as soon as he took any wounds, a la the tabletop item). As it turned out, he lasted quite well, and with a high-damage flexible power weapon  he could dish out the damage too. The kill-team spent a few rounds dealing with his minions and avoiding him entirely, but once they started firing at him they understandably found him pretty tough to kill.

I reckon he lasted about as long as a Hive Tyrant would have lasted against the same barrage of fire, the only difference being that instead of soaking it all he avoided it entirely. Eventially he managed to fail both his dodge and power field save, and got blown into crits by simple bolter fire.

The moral of the story is, you don't need a lot of hitpoints to be a tough adversary, you just have to be an evasion tank rather than a soak tank. My devestator got a bit annoyed by his heavy bolter fire being dodged so consistetly, but apart from that I think everyone enjoyed the encounter, and it's certainly very different to fighting a huge hulking boss tyranid or a tank or something, since the way to beat it is with lots of little shots rather than a few big punchy ones (a lot of big punchy shots works on everything, or so the devestator in question would say).



#19 Nikollo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

I have played a few different RPG systems (as I'm sure more than a few here have, as well), and I thought I should chime in on this:

The rules of damage and HP are not actually things set in stone. In Dungeons & Dragons (or Pathfinder), suppose you have a player who is a fighter. He's fairly high level, so he has well over 100 HP. Some baddy has a knife to his throat, trying to use him as a bargaining chip to get out of there. Going strictly by the rules, that dagger is 1d4 + Str/Dex mod depending upon the baddy's feats, and maybe 3x damage modifier on a critical hit. At most he's maybe dealing with 27 damage, if the rolls are really bad. Then again, thinking realistically, the baddy has a knife to his throat, and being a lvl 19 fighter does not make him immune to getting slit or stabbed in the throat. Alternately, a big nasty demon wielding a giant scimitar could hit him dealing 2d12 + Str mod (+7) x3 crit damage, doing, I dunno, 66 damage? Realistically, I demon dude three times your size swinging a scimitar sized for him is going to cut through any armour or shield you have. In this instance, only taking a third of the fighter's health would mean he did something like dodge out of the way, having the edge cut cleanly into the flesh of his arm, rather than being cloven in two. The HP system is a catch-all for the combination of your body being able to withstand damage better, you being able to cope with damage you recieve better, and better avoidance of damage through hard-won experience in combat. 

That being said, the wounds for the Eldar seems as though it works under the same principle as them knowing how to manuever in order to minimize inevitable damage. They do not represent the Eldar's actually physical ability to withstand damage, but rather their ability to twist and turn their body around it when it cannot be avoided entirely.



#20 Gamgee

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:44 PM

Lunareclipse123 said:

Well, I don't have Outer Reaches, but let me share my experience of running an Eldar Master level adversary - The kill team was at the top end of rank 2 and had just hit Respected renown (although because their ship was hit by Dark Eldar raiders they didn't have time for arming with anything but Standard Issue gear). Cutting to the end of the adventure, they were facing down the Archon of the Dark Eldar force.

I gave him 20 wounds, because that was as many as I could justify for an unaugmented alien who, while very long-lived, was only about as tough as an elite human. However, he had 55 agility, Unnatural Agility x2, dodge +20, Step Aside, and an 80% power field (that would overload as soon as he took any wounds, a la the tabletop item). As it turned out, he lasted quite well, and with a high-damage flexible power weapon  he could dish out the damage too. The kill-team spent a few rounds dealing with his minions and avoiding him entirely, but once they started firing at him they understandably found him pretty tough to kill.

I reckon he lasted about as long as a Hive Tyrant would have lasted against the same barrage of fire, the only difference being that instead of soaking it all he avoided it entirely. Eventially he managed to fail both his dodge and power field save, and got blown into crits by simple bolter fire.

The moral of the story is, you don't need a lot of hitpoints to be a tough adversary, you just have to be an evasion tank rather than a soak tank. My devestator got a bit annoyed by his heavy bolter fire being dodged so consistetly, but apart from that I think everyone enjoyed the encounter, and it's certainly very different to fighting a huge hulking boss tyranid or a tank or something, since the way to beat it is with lots of little shots rather than a few big punchy ones (a lot of big punchy shots works on everything, or so the devestator in question would say).

Yes, or a stealth based enemy. The Tau fight as a unified force aiding each other. Stealth Suits ot lure them in and weaken them. Followed up by a sneak attack ambush from heavy weapons fire. Combined with a marker light and incoming missiles. Add some snipers or melee to enguage them and the entire "fight" is the boss fight. The Tau Commander set up his troops to do this and because of his suit woud enguage the kill team where needed. Because of how I played him he was a very difficult fight.

 

Granted I have a very competent group of players, so what might sound harder to some is a fairly balanced encounter.






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