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some question about AToC


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#1 snowfrost

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

I'm collecting AGOT card's FAQ these days.Now I have some questions to be cleared.

 

1,The Last River

Challenges: kneel The Last River to give each participating character without a icon -1 STR until the end of the challenge.    

(1)I kneel The Last River,then I jump cat,will cat -1?

I think yes.

(2)then I give cat Rusted Sword,will she still-1?

I think no.

 

2, Raiding the Reach

Response: After you win an unopposed challenge reveal the top 5 cards of the losing opponent's deck. Choose and discard 2 cards (3 instead if it is Winter) and put the rest back on top of the deck in any order.

(1)winter,3 Motley Crewman in play.I play Raiding the Reach,what happen?

I think discard all 5 cards,then discard 1 addition.

(2)is it considered cards to be discard from opponent's deck/top of the deck?

I think it is considered to be discard from opp's deck,but not top of the deck.

 

3,Sunspear Tourney Grounds

Response: If you have lost a challenge this phase, kneel Sunspear Tourney Grounds to cancel a triggered character ability. (A character ability or the effects of an event triggered instead if you control more unique characters than each opponent).

when can I use it's response?The first challage?or must second?

I think when the first challenge I lose

 

4,Ser Davos Seaworth

Response: After Ser Davos Seaworth enters play, attach the top card of your deck to him, face down, as a duplicate.

can I check the face down card?my opp?

I think everyone can't check this face down card.

 

5,Finger Dance

Response: Kneel an Ironborn character to cancel the effects of an event card just played. Then, discard the top card of the event controller's deck. If a non-character card is discarded in this way, shuffle Finger Dance back into your deck.

Motley Crewman in play,I play finger dacne,discard 1 card,a character;discard another card,not a character,can I shuffle finger dance into my deck?

I think no,because of"in this way".

 

Am I right?thanks.



#2 Khudzlin

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:07 AM

  1. I'm not sure about the first, but I'd go with no, because of similarity to Dragon Support (which affects only characters that are participating when it is resolved). The second is no either way.
  2. You choose 3, discard them and 3 more (all 5 and 1 extra). Revealed cards are still in whatever play area they were before the effect (until an effect moves them.
  3. You lose a challenge in step 3 (resolution) of the "determine challenge winner" framework event, which is the first framework event in a challenge resolution. So the response is not valid to cancel events that cancel challenge winner determination (Feigned Retreat, Misinformation, True Power, Burning on the Sand) in the first challenge. After that, you can cancel saves, Red Vengeance and other character/event responses/challenges/any phase effects (provided you meet the restriction).
  4. No one, I believe.
  5. Motley Crewman modifies Finger Dance's effect, it does not create an extra discard effect (otherwise, multiple Motley Crewman would empty a deck at the first discard effect). So the second card is discarded by Finger Dance's effect. So if either card is something other than a character, Finger Dance gets shuffled in the deck.


#3 ktom

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:26 AM

1. No. The triggered effect that hits participating character "until the end of the challenge" only hits the characters participating at the moment it is triggered. If it said "Until the end of the challenge, participating characters without a MIL icon get -1 STR," then your interpretation would be true. Compare the wording to something like LoW-Robb Stark. (Word order and context matter.)

2. If the cards are not discarded from the top of your deck, where are  they being discarded from?

3. Since losing the challenge is a play restriction, you will not be able to meet that play restriction until a "determine winner" framework event resolves, not in your favor. Anything that happens after, even in the same window, will be fair game, though.

4. It's like The Hold. You can look at it. But your opponents can't.

5. As mentioned, it is not "Motley Crewman" that is doing the actual discarding - it is Finger Dance. So any extra cards are still discarded "in this way" by Finger Dance.



#4 mdc273

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:59 AM

Khudzlin said:

You choose 3, discard them and 3 more (all 5 and 1 extra). Revealed cards are still in whatever play area they were before the effect (until an effect moves them.

Gotta call this one out as sounding inaccurate. "Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card." This falls under one effect discarding multiple cards. That would only discard 1 additional card. In this case, you would actually discard the 3 cards of your choice and one additional card. You might argue you get to discard 4 cards of your choice, but it's irrelevant in this example. However you put the cards back will dictate what the fourth card discarded is.



#5 ktom

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

mdc273 said:

Khudzlin said:

You choose 3, discard them and 3 more (all 5 and 1 extra). Revealed cards are still in whatever play area they were before the effect (until an effect moves them.

Gotta call this one out as sounding inaccurate. "Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card." This falls under one effect discarding multiple cards. That would only discard 1 additional card. In this case, you would actually discard the 3 cards of your choice and one additional card. You might argue you get to discard 4 cards of your choice, but it's irrelevant in this example. However you put the cards back will dictate what the fourth card discarded is.

But with three separate and independent effect increasing the number of cards discarded, why isn't an "additional card" tacked on to the discard effect three separate and independent times?

Say you use the Shireen Character Agenda to give CS-Robert the "When (he) claims power for renown, (he) claims 1 additional power" passive ability. He already has his own "When (he) claims power for renown, he claims an additional power" ability. As separate and independent effects (even though they are "on" the same character), they initiate and resolve separately and independently, right? So wouldn't Robert get a total of 3 power for Renown, not 2?

And isn't that the same thing as 3 Motley Crewmen, each separately and independently modifying the same discard effect for a total of 3 extra cards?



#6 snowfrost

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

thanks~

but Q 2,Raiding the Reach,I think cards are considered be discard from opponent's deck,but not the top of the deck.



#7 Khudzlin

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:41 AM

If they're still in the deck, they're still at the top of it, because nothing in the effect moves them from the top of the deck to elsewhere in the deck. Cards stay in the same area until moved and revealing a card is not, by itself, moving it.



#8 mdc273

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:44 AM

ktom said:

mdc273 said:

Khudzlin said:

 

You choose 3, discard them and 3 more (all 5 and 1 extra). Revealed cards are still in whatever play area they were before the effect (until an effect moves them.

Gotta call this one out as sounding inaccurate. "Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card." This falls under one effect discarding multiple cards. That would only discard 1 additional card. In this case, you would actually discard the 3 cards of your choice and one additional card. You might argue you get to discard 4 cards of your choice, but it's irrelevant in this example. However you put the cards back will dictate what the fourth card discarded is.

But with three separate and independent effect increasing the number of cards discarded, why isn't an "additional card" tacked on to the discard effect three separate and independent times?

 

Say you use the Shireen Character Agenda to give CS-Robert the "When (he) claims power for renown, (he) claims 1 additional power" passive ability. He already has his own "When (he) claims power for renown, he claims an additional power" ability. As separate and independent effects (even though they are "on" the same character), they initiate and resolve separately and independently, right? So wouldn't Robert get a total of 3 power for Renown, not 2?

And isn't that the same thing as 3 Motley Crewmen, each separately and independently modifying the same discard effect for a total of 3 extra cards?

Oh that's what that three meant? LoL. I thought it was a typo.






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