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Long Voyage - 4 cards drawing?


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#1 SummerSeaCaptain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:02 AM

It was noticed back on agotcards.org: do I get to draw for every cards drawn during draw phase, also a minimum of 4 cards per round?

 

Text: Your minimum deck size is 85 cards.  When you draw during the draw phase, draw 1 additional card.



#2 Khudzlin

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:13 AM

No, you draw only 1 extra card (3 instead of 2) and that card counts against your draw cap (see Kings of Summer or Knights of the Realm).



#3 thorin_81

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:10 AM

I'm not so sure… the wording on Knights of the Realms and Kings of Summer is different ("if it is summer, draw 1 additional card during the draw phase" and "while you control more knight character than each other players, draw one additional card in the draw phase).

From the faq, when you draw multiple cards, you draw one at the time and not together, so when I draw the first of the 2 draw phase cards, I will be able to activate the passive of the agenda.  

 

But I could be wrong, or maybe it's only "bad wording"



#4 ktom

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:35 AM

So, by that logic, if you trigger any "draw a card" effect in the Draw phase, you get an extra card?

"When you draw during the draw phase" refers to the framework draw. So the framework goes from 2 to 3. If the agenda said "when you draw a card during the draw phase," I'd say you could invoke the "cards are drawn individually" interpretation.



#5 RobotMartini

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

ktom said:

So, by that logic, if you trigger any "draw a card" effect in the Draw phase, you get an extra card?

"When you draw during the draw phase" refers to the framework draw. So the framework goes from 2 to 3. If the agenda said "when you draw a card during the draw phase," I'd say you could invoke the "cards are drawn individually" interpretation.

If it is modifying the framework action, then why does the extra card count towards the draw cap?



#6 ktom

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

 

From the FAQ:

The Draw Cap

No player may draw more than three additional cards per round, regardless of card effects. Thus, the game rules allow each player to draw two cards during the draw phase, and each player may also (through effects and modifiers) draw up to a maximum of three additional cards in the course of a single round.

Cards drawn through an effect that modifies the framework draw (such as the benefit of the Kings of Summer agenda) do count against the cap of 3 additional cards. Cards that reduce the framework draw (such as the penalty on the Kings of Summer agenda) do not allow a player to draw any extra additional cards.



#7 mdc273

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:36 AM

SummerSeaCaptain said:

It was noticed back on agotcards.org: do I get to draw for every cards drawn during draw phase, also a minimum of 4 cards per round?

 

Text: Your minimum deck size is 85 cards.  When you draw during the draw phase, draw 1 additional card.

Poorly worded card is poorly worded. Surprise!



#8 -Istaril

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:42 PM

I'm a little confused, Ktom. If we accept that "When you draw during the draw phase" is not on a per-card basis, would it still not be on a per-"trigger" basis? You could "respond" once to framework draw, then once to your golden tooth mines… and cap out your draw for the turn. Unless the argument is that "When you draw during the draw phase" refers ONLY to the framework event "Draw", and not to any other drawing that happens in the draw phase? This seems tenuous at best…



#9 ktom

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:54 PM

-Istaril said:

I'm a little confused, Ktom. If we accept that "When you draw during the draw phase" is not on a per-card basis, would it still not be on a per-"trigger" basis? You could "respond" once to framework draw, then once to your golden tooth mines… and cap out your draw for the turn.
Putting aside the fact that Golden Tooth Mines would only let you draw a card in the Draw Phase if you manage to reveal a new plot in the Draw phase, you should be aware of the fact that Long Voyage is not a passive effect. It does not "respond" to drawing a card. Rather, it is a constant effect that modifies the framework draw effect to 3 cards instead of 2. It is more like Motley Crewman (modifying effects that draw cards) than Second Sons (reacting to the cards that are actually drawn).

-Istaril said:

Unless the argument is that "When you draw during the draw phase" refers ONLY to the framework event "Draw", and not to any other drawing that happens in the draw phase? This seems tenuous at best…
Yes, "When you draw during the draw phase" ONLY refers to the framework "draw" event in the Draw phase.

it is not "tenuous at best." It is the way you have probably looked at every other card before now. Have you ever assumed, let alone played, that Seal of the Crown, Knights of the Realm, or Kings of Summer affected anything other than the framework draw? Why haven't people playing those cards ever put any effort into trying to exploit the "1 additional card"? This is particularly important for Kings of Summer. Have you ever assumed or played that the drawback ("If it is Winter, draw 1 less card (to a minimum of 1) during the draw phase.") should be applied to non-framework draws in the draw phase?

I know this is not something in most people's experience, but this issue was dealt with long ago in CCG days. When something refers to "drawing during the draw phase," it only applies to the framework draw. But send it in to FFG to be sure they haven't changed their minds over the years and in contrast to the way the other agendas have been treated. 



#10 -Istaril

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

Ugh, yeah, I was thinking plot phases for some damnfool reason.

I'd argue that Seal of the Crown, Kings of Summer and Knights of the Realm all modify the total number of cards drawn during the draw phase, so I've never really thought of them as applying only to the framework draw. In the completely hypothetical situation where something caused you to draw 2, or 3 less cards (eg Summer agenda drawback) during the draw phase, I suppose I would have assumed it affected all draw, even that outside of the framwork draw.

The distinction (at least linguistically) for me comes from the phrasing "When you draw" and not (While X) "Draw one additional card" (during Y), which - you're right, acts more like Motley Crewman than a response (I did put "response" in quotation marks, it wasn't exactly what I meant), but I stilll seeing it as being relevant "When you draw", not just "When you draw as part of the framework action".

I am glad to hear there's a CCG precedent, and believe that your interpretation is the designer intent, I just really don't see how the wording, as written, excludes my interpretation.






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