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Attack Dice > Defense Dice


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#1 a4rino

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 12:17 PM

I recently discovered that the opponent against whom I typically play X-Wing was completely unaware that attack dice are more likely to hit than defense dice are to evade.

 

On the 8-sided attack dice, there are 3 hits + 1 crit + 2 focus + 2 blank sides, so you have a 50% chance of hit or crit before focus.

On the 8-sided dfense dice, there are 3 evades + 2 focus + 3 blank sides, so you have a 37.5% chance of rolling and evade before focus.

 

This means that 3 attack dice vs 2 defense dice is better offensively than 2 attack dice vs 3 defense dice is defensively, and is a contributing factor in why Stealth Device seems to be disappointing for many people (my gaming partner included, which is how I discovered that he didn't know this in the first place). This could also be interpreted to mean that focus is more "valuable" on defense because evades are more rare, but I think it is a stretch to make this claim.

 

Anyway, just wanted to throw that information out there in case anyone else had somehow missed it.



#2 rowdyoctopus

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

I don't think I had taken the time to check the exact count of each result on each die, but I was aware that there were more blank sides on the defense dice as compared to the attack dice.



#3 Mu0n

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

Yes, adding a dice is not a guarantee that everything will go better. Rerolls, or dice modification is very often better in most games where dice is central to the mechanics.

 

Stealth device WITH focus is a thing of wonder for defense, though. It's the same situation that occurs with R2-F2. Alone, it kind of sucks, even on a X-Wing that goes from 2 defense to 3 defense. I think you have to be the target of 3 ships for it to beat just using focus (don't take my word on it, a quick analysis should show if I'm right or not). However, R2-F2 combined with a free focus action given by a nearby Lando is very good (pile on stealth device for incredible defense).

 

 


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#4 a4rino

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

Mu0n said:

Stealth device WITH focus is a thing of wonder for defense, though. It's the same situation that occurs with R2-F2. Alone, it kind of sucks, even on a X-Wing that goes from 2 defense to 3 defense. I think you have to be the target of 3 ships for it to beat just using focus (don't take my word on it, a quick analysis should show if I'm right or not). However, R2-F2 combined with a free focus action given by a nearby Lando is very good (pile on stealth device for incredible defense).

 

You are right that Focus is better than R2-F2 for a single attack on a typical ship. If someone like Biggs takes lots of attacks in the same round, R2-F2 can be useful alone. In general, R2-F2 should be buffed with a 2nd action, although sometimes pilot abilities (like Luke's Focus-like ability) can make him worthwhile by himself.

One time I ran Biggs + R2-F2 + Stealth alongside Lando + Nien Nunb. The combination wasn't as effective for me as it could have been because these two didn't always stay in Range 1 of each other, but it was still effective enough for me to win that game. With better maneuvering these guys could be nearly invulernable!

How about an A-Wing with PtL and Stealth Device? You could roll 4 defense dice (5 at Range 3), Focus, and Evade almost every round!



#5 paradox23

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

There are a lot of factors that swing the math, but yes… the general rule of thumb is that attacking is better than defending.

 

Example of an exception:
TIE Interceptor at range 3 with stealth device. You can get really unlucky, but 3 base DEF dice + 1 DEF die + an evade action greatly reduces the chance that a single 2-3 die ATT will succeed while giving you decent odds at a single successful hit with your 3 ATT dice vs 3-4 DEF dice should yeild you the attrition advantage.



#6 jetsetter

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 04:07 PM

If attacking is better than defending then Expose is the shiznit!!!!  #justsayin'



#7 Sunsteel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

I added that up when I first got my hands on a set of dice. But it makes sense if you consider the alternative is a game that drags out without much resolve. If you keep this in mind when constructing a team you won't just add up how many total points of damage your team can take, like many do, but balance that with what you can dish out in damage each turn. Knowing you can only deal a percentage of your total damage output, which is limited by the maneuverability of your ships and your ability to anticipate your opponents moves. But I digress. Yes it's easier to damage than evade.

#8 Sunsteel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

jetsetter said:

If attacking is better than defending then Expose is the shiznit!!!!  #justsayin'

I do love that enhancement!

#9 ziggy2000

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:25 PM

Mu0n said:

 However, R2-F2 combined with a free focus action given by a nearby Lando is very good (pile on stealth device for incredible defense).

 

 

I ran this very combo just today, and my opponent  rolled hot and I was ice cold -  she removed my Stealth in the very first round of combat. I was bummed.

 



#10 paradox23

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

jetsetter said:

If attacking is better than defending then Expose is the shiznit!!!!  #justsayin'

 

Now lets say you have expose on Han… he becomes a killing machine.



#11 executor

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

paradox23 said:

jetsetter said:

 

If attacking is better than defending then Expose is the shiznit!!!!  #justsayin'

 

 

 

Now lets say you have expose on Han… he becomes a killing machine.

i've been suggesting options like this for a while, mainly with Darth Vader due to his 2 actions advantage.. i think expose is one of those action cards that needs to warm up to people

and though I do agree that lowering your defense can be your demise; it really just matters when it's worth using


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#12 BaronZaltor

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

executor said:

paradox23 said:

 

jetsetter said:

 

If attacking is better than defending then Expose is the shiznit!!!!  #justsayin'

 

 

 

Now lets say you have expose on Han… he becomes a killing machine.

 

 

i've been suggesting options like this for a while, mainly with Darth Vader due to his 2 actions advantage.. i think expose is one of those action cards that needs to warm up to people

and though I do agree that lowering your defense can be your demise; it really just matters when it's worth using

With a high pilot skill like Vader,  Han or Wedge you get to be the last ship (or one of the last) ships to move, so you can already tell if you are inside anyones fire arc and know if you are in any danger or not for useing it that turn before you ever declare.



#13 paradox23

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

If you're really careful, expose can be super effective on boba as well, with his ability to change directions during the maneuver phase.



#14 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:42 AM

I have a set of bruises on my forehead from facepalming re: Expose. 

It is, in the most typical use case, not a good idea. Unless you have a way to get a second action, and you use that action to combine Expose with Focus or Target Lock, you will do less average damage with Expose than you would with Target Lock or Focus. It's a bad idea in the same way that just throwing a Concussion Missile or Proton Torpedo on any old ship was a bad idea in Wave 1: as long as you have at least 2 attack dice, adding an action is more effective than adding a die. 

Keep in mind that I'm not even taking the defensive cost into account, here.

There are certainly pilots and upgrades with which you can make Expose work for you, but unless you plan ahead during the list-building phase of the game, bringing Expose along will cause a net drop in damage for your expensive elite pilot. 



#15 paradox23

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:51 AM

I totally understand your reluctance to expose, but I think you're over playing it.

If you have someone like Han who can take a hit and reroll dice, expose is excellent. 4-5 dice with a re-roll each is amazing. If you can swarm him to get Garven's focus token, it become the single most lethal offense in the game, followed only by a focus + target lock HLC Firespray. If you have the means to avoid taking damage, it only gets better.



#16 Haroon

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:14 AM

paradox23 said:

I totally understand your reluctance to expose, but I think you're over playing it.

If you have someone like Han who can take a hit and reroll dice, expose is excellent. 4-5 dice with a re-roll each is amazing. If you can swarm him to get Garven's focus token, it become the single most lethal offense in the game, followed only by a focus + target lock HLC Firespray. If you have the means to avoid taking damage, it only gets better.

 

I am not sure you understand what the previous poster way saying,  he said expose was only good when you could take another action, but in it self it's never a better choice then focus.  



#17 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

paradox23 said:

 

I totally understand your reluctance to expose, but I think you're over playing it.

If you have someone like Han who can take a hit and reroll dice, expose is excellent. 4-5 dice with a re-roll each is amazing. If you can swarm him to get Garven's focus token, it become the single most lethal offense in the game, followed only by a focus + target lock HLC Firespray. If you have the means to avoid taking damage, it only gets better.

 

 

I did say that there are pilots and lists that can make Expose work, and Han+ Expose + Luke (crew) is certainly a lethal combination. Of course, that's going to cost you 57 points or more; Marksmanship+Gunner is also extremely effective, and it's 3 points cheaper with no defensive cost.

EDIT: Trying to keep this on topic, I suppose… the defensive counterpoint to the OP's statement about attack and defense dice is that a ship's Attack dice are likely to come into play once per turn (twice at most), where its Agility dice are likely to be used multiple times per round against a smart opponent.



#18 paradox23

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:34 PM

Haroon said:

 

I am not sure you understand what the previous poster way saying,  he said expose was only good when you could take another action, but in it self it's never a better choice then focus.  

 

 

 

I get that he said that… but Vorp spends a lot of time talking about what a waste Expose is.  And I get why he says it… he just he overstates it.

 

 

And yes, ATT dice are where the game is at.  A target lock is almost always the best action you can take; specially if you can get more ATT dice.  IMO, target lock + focus engines are the most brutal offensive force in the game.






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