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#1 Xathrodox86

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:20 AM

My players have all 5th rank by now. The team consists of a horrible psyker that can solo anyone with a firestorm and heals every single squad member, a metllican gunslinger with two tranters with hack shotguns, encarmine smg and a bolt pistol, and arbites who's a jack of all trades, he's the ebst melee fighter, a tech priest with a forest of mechadendrites and two "flesh is weak" traits, a shooty scum with armageddon autogun and an assassin who mainly runs away (he's an npc).

So here's the deal. Right now they've killed almost everything I threw at them without much fuss. The only problem were the Slaught from the "Maggots in the meat" adventure. Altough some fate points have been burned, right now I have a feeling that these guys can kill every single thing that moves. For example the scum dealt about 50 damage with pen 2 to a golem-type guy, that they fought at the end of the "The Patchwork Man", and the psyker killed 5 guys with a single firestorm. You see where this is going? I have no idea how should I scale the enemies for them right now. The ones in the adventures are simply too weak. Either they have crappy armour, crappy weapons (primitive), pathetic stats or a combination of all! I'm afraid that future adventures and campaigns will have no pression, no danger at all!

I know what you are going to say: simply throw stronger enemies at them. Ok, that's true. But how much stronger? I don't want to kill them all during their next engagament, in the first round. On the other hand I know that I really need to arm their enemies better and to give them better stats, but I'm also worried that my players will suddendly have an influx of awesome weapons and armour, which they'll be scavenging from the dead, and I don't really want that. They are rich enough as it is already, and I shiver to think that they'll suddendly start running with hellguns and wearing full carpace armour (the psyker already has one).

That's why I'm asking you guys for help. What do you think their enemies stats, weapons, gear, numbers etc. should be? Can you post some stats, ideas for baddies, along with their gear?

So far my PC's are all on 1 FP with the exception of the assassin (he's new and has 4 FP) and Techpriest (he has 0 FP). I know that's not much, but honestly, they are statistically killing 1-3 enemy NPC's during a round and I'm afraid it'll get worse. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks!



#2 InquisitorAlexel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:09 AM

That's a regular problem in games.

First thing:

-Don't make your adversaries stronger.

-Don't equip them better.

 

You play your battles with too much dices and not enough drama.

 

-Make them fight in the tunnels of an underwater base, a shot breaks glass, water fills the place, they are shoved away by it. Their ennemies knew it and where ready.

-If you want better equipment, throw smoke/blind/stun grenades at them, it won't kill them, but it will make your player characters weaker. Your psyker can't target what he doesn't see, the same for your shooters.

-Create larger mob (in numbers), it will become harder, your character more heroic; and in this mob, you have a one shot meltagun, or a heavy stubber. It will be enough if used correctly to sacre them.

-Make your NPC use tactical advantages (moving throught cover, defensive manoeuvre in melee to make the combat longer, etc.)

 

 

The average ennemy your players met should always be lesser than them, only important adversaries should be higher than the humain norm. And as you said, giving better equipment will strenghten the loot of your players, which will make them stronger.



#3 Luthor Harkon

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:16 AM

Xathrodox86 said:

That's why I'm asking you guys for help. What do you think their enemies stats, weapons, gear, numbers etc. should be? Can you post some stats, ideas for baddies, along with their gear?

So far my PC's are all on 1 FP with the exception of the assassin (he's new and has 4 FP) and Techpriest (he has 0 FP). I know that's not much, but honestly, they are statistically killing 1-3 enemy NPC's during a round and I'm afraid it'll get worse. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks!

For the reason you mentioned I would not use much better equipped opponents. Better play "normal" opponents more intelligent. Use cover, use supressing fire, try to gang up on certain PC (e.g. the Psyker as mentioned in the other thread), use Stun, Snare, Flame weapons (Fire Bombs are great "low tech" weapons) to disrupt them as well as make use of fear. Fear is often a great "tool" as its effects are rather strong in DH and most players tend to have low WP. Low level Psyker as opponents can use Fearful Aura for example or use an Ogryn or even a lesser Daemon. Both cannot really be looted for usable equipment. Still, nothing will help against a Damage 50 chance hit and my group's Assassin also does this kind of damage from time to time. Either let the opponents Dodge or swarm them with more mooks…



#4 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

Adding in a hidden sniper is always great spice to add to a fight.  If they don't know its coming they can't dodge.  Aimed called shots for locations with no/low armor with the basic hunting rifle or long las should put some fear into them making them take cover, spend time looking instead of shooting, puting their guns away to pull out the auspex, etc.

As others pointed out above, do something to disrupt their game plan.  Firesotrm is a bad idea on an oil rig.  Threaten that techpriest with haywire.  Frame them for a crime preventing them from taking their normal downtime.  Meleeing the arbitors is not a great way to prove your innocence.



#5 Alekzanter

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:03 AM

Sometimes Acolytes fall down…

…a 50-meter elevator shaft.

And die.



#6 Angel of Death

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:04 PM

Alekzanter said:

Sometimes Acolytes fall down…

…a 50-meter elevator shaft.

And die.

Sadly I have to say, others Dive down 1 on purpose to get to the Heretics backfield…  Trusting his Grapple line and the Emperor to guide him. atontado

 


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#7 FieserMoep

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:55 PM

50-meters-shaft?

Tell this a Tech-Priest aka Weapon Platform when he jumps down, starts his hover mode and opens fire.^^



#8 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:46 PM

And don't forget the classic "evil twin" adventure.  When you're matched gun for gun and stat for stat only brains or dice can bring you victory.



#9 FieserMoep

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

Its more a classic doppelganger adventure then. An evil-twin adventure would be more the looks but not necessarly the skill-set in my opinion. For example an Arbitrator could have en evil-twin that is a scum  and looks exactly the same but is a thief or trickster and theremore makes the arbitator tons of problems. A doppelganger would be an exact copy beside he might be altered in his intentions but his looks, skills and talents are mirrowed.



#10 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:57 AM

FieserMoep said:

Its more a classic doppelganger adventure then. An evil-twin adventure would be more the looks but not necessarly the skill-set in my opinion. For example an Arbitrator could have en evil-twin that is a scum  and looks exactly the same but is a thief or trickster and theremore makes the arbitator tons of problems. A doppelganger would be an exact copy beside he might be altered in his intentions but his looks, skills and talents are mirrowed.

 

except for the goatee that is.



#11 Hakaisha

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

send 5 Eldar Aspect Warriors, or a few Farseers, or maybe a Harlequin, or troupe, there are Tyranids, and Chaos Space Marines.

 

Another way is make a generic group of humans, have them suprise them with an explosion of sorts before attacking them, with one or two providing cover fire. With suprise the generic group gets a free action regardless of initiative, then they have to find cover or only have half an action per turn, have one of the guys fling melta bombs at them, they are cheap, easy to get and does infinity damage maybe gas grenades that causes hallucination. 

You can have 6 snipers with Noman Rifles, put a telescope on them, for a range of a kilometer.

 

Then again, most of this is game ending stuff

 

Alternativly check out page 143 in Creatures Anathema



#12 Ansalagon

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:55 AM

Well, if you feel they are getting too confident, you can always add ssituations where they HAVE to run... They might be able to take down a homoguant... but now squad can take down a tyranid swarm... or a demongate...

 

Alternatively you can create an enemy that fights smart and strike low. Leaks information about them, try to miscredit them, supply weapons to their enemies and snipe them when they are walking peacegully in the street... Sure they can take down most foes... But are they going to gun down innocent arbites that raid their hideout on a rumor they are criminels hiding there? or what if a highranking official they have to talk to goes missing?

Stiking and harassing them indirectly, can sometimes be much more effective then sending bigger foes. Making them feel watched or up against an enemy that knows all (even if though he doesn't) can make them paranoid... Of cource you can aslo go further, killing the NPCs they care for, switching out the person they were supposed to talk to with an inposter, even spreading rumors about them being heretics, and much worse..

 

But keep the identity of the enemy secret for a long time. No name, no face, nothing. Then they only get the reason why in the end (or maybe they don't even get that)... Wether its an agent of chaos trying to turn them or even their own inqusitor trying to test how worthy they are thats up to you



#13 Askil

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:33 AM

Easy route to screw with exploiting overpowered PCs?

 

Kill off their Inquisitor. Or have some shadowy agent of righteousness expose him as a heretic, either way have the Inquisition revoke their mandate and declare them rogue elements.

 

Have forces of the Imperium hunt them (rightfully or not) and push them into the darkness they sought to destroy just to survive. Send Malfian bloodsworn to hound them (have one kill the NPC assassin maybe?)

 

See how they get on attaining bolt shells and other such supplies when they are hiding out in the back of beyond marked for death by the Inquisition,



#14 Amaimon

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:55 PM

I know exacly your problem. I had the same one when running Haarlock Legacy. The biggest problem is the psyker. The rest, you can manage. 

 

Can your enemies dodge firestorm? I always used it, as if it had blast (5), so enemies, at the edge of the blast could dodge it. 

 

Use pinning, stun grenades, halucinogenic grenades, flamers, fire bombs, or some inferno shells. Webber is a great option too. All mentioned before. Also armageddon with man-stopper bullets - quite cheap, but full auto from this baby, can make even tough acolyte squeal. 

 

Of course, the best enemies are slaught, because they are nulls. Normal slaught are tough, but managable at this power lvl. If you really want to challenge them, use slaught overseer from DoDG (Master Nonesuch) or even Slaught Destructor from Dead Stars (Miss Book). 

 

Other great enemies:  Mara Strain psychoneuin (or smth), especially the adult specimen. Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Genestealers or Lictor. Horrors and flamers (firestorm too) or renegade psykers and sorcerrers. Sorcery is quite devastating. Special note to some powers from Radicals Handbook:

- Flaming word - 20m flamer, that automatically sets on fire

- Disease - -10 to all stats per round - no saving throw

- Transfix - WP (-30) or target do nothing for 1 hour = dead

- Living Weapon - great for battle psykers. With this, even medicore adept with great weapon, with this power becomes formidable opponent. 

 

Other powers worth mentioning:

- psychic scream - disables half of the party

- blood boil - disables or kill one guy

- psychic blade - killer

 

Oh and dont forget to tell your psyker to take: Regenerate, Flesh Like Iron, Psychic Blade, Catch Projectiles

 

Edit: And remember to try to cancel overbleed on firestorm if you have a potent psyker. Firestorm that deals 1d10+5 is not that scary (yeah it still sets aflame). 


Edited by Amaimon, 11 September 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#15 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:47 AM

The Patchwork Man

...Wait, what?

 

Is this one with a noble family who can't use rejuvenat? I wrote that one, years ago and bunged it on Dark Reign. Never knew if anyone actually used it. :)

 

If so, that's really cheered me up.

 

Re: Really powerful players.

 

The above advice is good.

My suggestions are as follows:

1) There are 'minion' rules in...err...I want to say Inquisitor's Handbook, but I'm not sure. Might be Creatures Anathema. Either way, they essentially have two 'wounds' - wounded and dead - and are one-shotted if a hit does ten wounds or more in a single hit. Much less book-keeping, allowing you to throw tonnes of dudes at them. By this, I mean something akin to one of the best scenes in Sherlock Homes: Game of Shadows - where the heretic (or messenger thereof ) agrees to meet the acolytes in a 'neutral', 'public' place - a chapel or something. They threaten him, he calmly shakes his head, picks up a small brass bell and rings it - at which point every single member of the congregation produce handguns and take aim.

2) Sniper is a good one. If they will win any likely 'fair fight', then don't offer them one. Given how awesome they are, being selected as a bodyguard team is quite likely. At which point, the protectee gets killed and they need to hunt down the sniper through a series of booby-trapped hides and buildings.

3) Don't just offer awesome weapons - as you say, pretty soon they'd end up in the player's hands. Xenos or Malleus type threat isn't generally salvageable - something like a purestrain is also a sneaky threat, not a tough one; well suited to threaten gun-bunnies with. Ogryns thugs are another good one. Blunt brute force with ripper guns and big axes, neither of which the players can wield by themselves.

4) There's no easy way to balance fighting power, but a good way to rein things in is to give them a fight you know they can't win - the objective is to escape and survive. Using the 'tonnes of dudes' approach above - or the ever popular Plague Zombie Apocalypse , start with equal numbers but add twice (or three times) the turn number in new zombies/thugs every turn. They will hopefully swiftly figure out they can't win.

 

 

My personal response to a team that's 'that good' is, as noted, that someone nefarious has gotten annoyed by the Acolyte's deeds and contracted a professional hit squad. The 'Kill Squad' in the back of the book is a good one. Put in double the number that there are acolytes. Hit them in a crowded place, just to complicate matters (do you fire back into the crowd? try to fall back? which way?), and start with suppressing fire bursts with about half of them. Firing from good cover, spread out (so not vulnerable to massive fireballs). Make sure you use the range of the autogun as well - Tranters are all well and good but not from 150 metres away....

 

If you really want to scare them, fire with that half, then, once they take cover, the other half open up in a crossfire, making a mockery of whatever cover they've jumped into.

 

The aim isn't to win, it's to not die until the magistratum arrive in force to back them up (have a small patrol team arrive in turn 2 and be gunned down to prove the point).

 

I'd actually consider pulling that out at the start of the mission as a 'scene setter' - essentially, "who the hell was that, what happened and how did they find us?" and trying to trace the attacker and catch them before they find out the Acolytes survived.



#16 Keffisch

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 07:04 AM

Put them in situations where their abilities and guns cannot help them - conflicts they are forced to roleplay their way out of. (and/or be cruel and put them into sticky situations that they brought about themselves)

 

At the summons.

"Oh we are very sorry Mr. Planetary Governeor guy for blowing up your palace guard. How on Terra are we going to explain this one to our inquisitor when we get back to the Tricorn?"



#17 Braddoc

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:41 PM

Keffisch hit it on the button; they're crazy madmen when it comes to combat?  Drop'em in an investigation, the Governor's Grand ball, get them to go undercover on a feudal world, force them to use their wits and smarts over their guns and brawls...just putting more dangerous and powerful opponents will just create an artificial arms race so to speak, meaning that any time you want to use low level hive punks to add flavour or to act as clue or whatever, they'll just start shooting and never look twice.


Edited by Braddoc, 22 September 2013 - 09:41 PM.

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