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Legality of Xeno goods


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#1 eBarbarossa

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:31 PM

Hey all,

One of the big perks of being a Rogue Trade is that you are allowed to interact and deal with the Xeno. But, how is that handled on the other side of your trade route? Buying alien wares is all good and dandy, but whom are you selling them to? Most xeno technology seems forbidden and/or blasphemous so the authorities would take a dim view on you selling that stuff to imperial citizens. Of course, raw materials are no problem, but what other xeno wares can be sold legally? Do you have any guidelines?



#2 ieatdeadpeople2

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:52 AM

I was thinking about this exact subject.  I think Xenos wares are fine for selling as long as the arent being imported into the imperium but smuggling items in or selling them to cold traders is a definate way of getting more prfoit than making legal trasactions outside the borders of the imperium.

But thats just my opinion it isnt cannon or anything.


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#3 weaver95

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:36 AM

I think the Kasabasilica mission in Footfall (and port wander, too if I'm thinking correctly) tries their level best to buy up all things Xenos.  their competitors do the same.  so a Rogue Trader can hit footfall with a load of Xenos artifacts, sell it to one of the organizations that deals in that stuff and walk away clean.  no muss, no fuss and doesn't have to worry about the details of what happens next.

also - most humans won't know if something is Xenos make.  ignorance is bliss, remember?  as long as something isn't obviously creepy, weird or psychic odds are most humans won't know anything about Xenos gear or items.  it'll be different tho, which is a whole other issue.  but if you sell it properly you might convince someone they aren't buying xenos items, its really just some very very strange archeotech.

 



#4 eBarbarossa

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

Yeah, selling in Footfall would be rather easy, as long as you always remember to bring serious looking men with bolters.

But the thing is: The Imperium sanctions Rogue Traders OFFICIALLY to deal with Xenos. So there must be stuff one can officially sell within the Imperium. Without backroom deals, or passing it off as archaeotech. But what could it be?



#5 puenboy

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:59 AM

Would selling Xenotech to a Magos Xenologis be legal?



#6 ieatdeadpeople2

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:48 AM

Definately as long as the Magos isn't a heretic.


"Fire cannot kill a dragon..."-Daenerys Targaryen

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#7 susanbrindle

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:24 AM

Also, some Xenotech isn't proscribed. Digiweapons, for example, are exclusively imported from the Jokeareo space monkey population.



#8 weaver95

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:33 PM

eBarbarossa said:

Yeah, selling in Footfall would be rather easy, as long as you always remember to bring serious looking men with bolters.

But the thing is: The Imperium sanctions Rogue Traders OFFICIALLY to deal with Xenos. So there must be stuff one can officially sell within the Imperium. Without backroom deals, or passing it off as archaeotech. But what could it be?

 

hmm.

well, at a guess I'd say that high ranking members of imperial society could legally purchase Xenos gear (so long as it wasn't TOO offensive and/or blatantly obvious).  Generals of the Imperial guard, various and sundry nobility, trading cartels looking to seem more impressive/fearsome.  Members of the adeptus mechanicus looking to rip apart Xenos gear to learn it's secrets and/or figure out how to destroy it's makers easier.  the Imperial Inquisition might want to legally aquire Xenos tech for all sorts of reasons that don't bear thinking about.  Then of course there's illegal cultists who might arrange to legal purchase Xenos items for their nefarious purposes - after all, why steal it when you can just BUY it?  set up a shell corporation, buy your various required items legally…and then disappear forever. 



#9 Erathia

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:32 PM

eBarbarossa said:

Yeah, selling in Footfall would be rather easy, as long as you always remember to bring serious looking men with bolters.

But the thing is: The Imperium sanctions Rogue Traders OFFICIALLY to deal with Xenos. So there must be stuff one can officially sell within the Imperium. Without backroom deals, or passing it off as archaeotech. But what could it be?

 

Find the right (wrong?) members of the Inquisition who are radical enough to believe that the weapons of the enemies of mankind should be used against their creators, or Heretek Adeptus Mechanicus who seek to study their technology to see how it could be made complaint with STC patterns.

Although Rogue Traders have the legal right to DEAL with Xenos, that doesn't mean they have the right to bring potentially hazardous technology back to Imperial space. I think there's no legal market for xenotech in the Imperium because anything they make is inferior and/or heretical when compared to good man-made technology.


Citizens of Grace! We have defeated both the Dark Eldar and Ork menaces that threatened your system! We need no thanks nor payments, so long as you do not leave the atmosphere during our salvage operations under pain of death! - Jequin Hos of The Hos Dynasty


#10 eBarbarossa

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:56 AM

Erathia said:

Although Rogue Traders have the legal right to DEAL with Xenos, that doesn't mean they have the right to bring potentially hazardous technology back to Imperial space. I think there's no legal market for xenotech in the Imperium because anything they make is inferior and/or heretical when compared to good man-made technology.

See and that doesn't make sense.

"You are allowed to buy Xenos stuff on behalf of the Imperium, but you won't be able to sell it. And why? Because we're eeeeeeevul dogmatics, that's why!" That just doesn't cut it for me.



#11 SirFrog

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:16 AM

It might be a means to an end, so to speak.

I believe that the point is to trade xenotech with those willing to buy it outside the Imperium to aquire favours, objects and the like that ARE legal and highly sought after by the Imperium or somebody in it. Obviously, selling to Ordo Xenos or a Magos Xenologis would be perfectly legal (although I envy your contacts if Ordo Xenos buy stuff from you). You could trade that tech with a mercenary group as payment for their help in purging an ancient human city, where you get the dibs on all the cool stuff, or you trade an eldar tech for a document detailing the location of something or other.

 

Then, of course, there are the illegal markets, but that is not the subject of this thread.



#12 puenboy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:51 AM

I would imagine that there'd be a legal blockage in the fact that while selling to the Inquisitoon and Magos Xenologis is legal, just being in possession of it within Imperial space is not. I would imagine you'd still have to smuggle the goods to a forge world in order to "legally" sell it. Well, either that or arrange for the Magos to come personally pick it up outside Imperial space, which I doubt the Magos would consider that unless it is very valuable.

from my understanding; so long as the authority don't find Xenotech in your cargo hold, you're good to go.



#13 susanbrindle

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

It might also be that being allowed to "Deal" with them means speaking with them and negoitating with them, not necesarrily buying their technology.

 

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#14 Erathia

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:14 AM

eBarbarossa said:

Erathia said:

 

Although Rogue Traders have the legal right to DEAL with Xenos, that doesn't mean they have the right to bring potentially hazardous technology back to Imperial space. I think there's no legal market for xenotech in the Imperium because anything they make is inferior and/or heretical when compared to good man-made technology.

 

 

See and that doesn't make sense.

"You are allowed to buy Xenos stuff on behalf of the Imperium, but you won't be able to sell it. And why? Because we're eeeeeeevul dogmatics, that's why!" That just doesn't cut it for me.

Except that is the in-universe explanation  for 40K. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim and dark future, there is only war. Rogue Traders are meant to make contact with Xenos races, assess them as a threat to the Imperium (possibly through posthumous examination of the Rogue Trader's shattered hulk of a vessel), and then categorize whether or not they need to be wiped out immediately, or just sort of ignored and dealt with when the Navy has a moment.

Now there are a lot of radical Inquisitors, bored nobles and AdMech who will happily buy things from you, but they're not going to blatantly advertise that's what they're doing. The only real place where you can find a market where selling these things doesn't get you executed on site would be a place like the Koronus Expanse which is not technically Imperial Space. Even then though, you might face some pointed questions when you come back if you're viewed as having gone native.

The place where xenos technology is openly traded, analyzed and discussed is the Tau Empire. There are hints that there's a portal to the Eastern Fringe somewhere in the Koronus Expanse, so if you find that you could probably set up a market over there as well.


Citizens of Grace! We have defeated both the Dark Eldar and Ork menaces that threatened your system! We need no thanks nor payments, so long as you do not leave the atmosphere during our salvage operations under pain of death! - Jequin Hos of The Hos Dynasty


#15 ieatdeadpeople2

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

You wouldnt have to got hat far at all.  The Kronus expanse is like the wild west, it is wilderness space the imperium can't enforce it so they allow private intrests to develop it and assess it thus rogue traders.  Since your not in the imperium xenos technology is not proscribed and you dont have to worry about being prosecuted at all. 

This is why rogue traders are seen as dangerous by the rest of imperial society, while their brining the light of the emperor into the darkness they come into contact with dangerous and blasphemous things.  This is accepteable because as their warrant states they act as the voice of the emperor byond his realm and they can do what ever they see fit while their out there.

This is also why rogue trader wars are technicly legal as well.  Their petty squables are ignored by the imperium because it doesn't have the resources to enforce the areas of space the rogue traders operate in. 

Legal trading of xenos good can defniately take place just so longa as you dotn bring it to any imperial controlled planet so damaris is a no go.  But footfall or the breaking docks are fine.  In fact higher lelvels of imperial society proabbly like things this ay sincce it encourages development without any cost to the imperium itself.  By keeping illegal goods proscribed from imperial space it protects citizens from corruption while simulatneously forcing rogue traders out into undeveloped regions.


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#16 Zaltorin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:07 AM

If you have access to it, I recommend reading the cold trade section of Hostile Acquisitions.  It addresses warrants that allow for trading with xenos.

Apparently it is legal for a RT who's warrant specifically states it, to sell xenos artifacts within the boarders of the imperium. It just that the trade is so profitable that those traders who's warrant does not allow them to to risk sanction.

HOWEVER, the inquisition will keep a close eye on any traders importing xenos artifacts, regardless of their warrant and will intervene if they deem the artifacts to be too heretical.

 



#17 Blink Dog

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:11 AM

You can also do the "chain of deals" system. Buying from Xenos A to sell to Xenos B in exchange for something for Xenos C, who have something that is legal in the Imperium (promethium, radioactives, gems, etc.) as long as it's not of xenos manufacture, as opposed to xenos sourced, it should be fine. The Inquisition might even see the humor in blowing up a xenos society with weapons made from the material they sold to the RT and thence to the Imperium. 

 

 



#18 fulcan

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

To fully understand how all this works, you have to understand the cyclopean beaurocracy of the Imperium of Man. Think about how Inquisitors operate. The Inquisitorial Remit gives the Inquisition the power to act as a self governing body answerable only to itself and the God Emperor of Mankind. This gives them authority that rises even above the central governing body of the Adeptus Terra itself. This gives each Inquisitor tremendous power that, officially speaking, not even a High Lord of Terra can refuse.

The key phrase here is 'officially speaking'.

In reality, there are multitudes of overlapping authorities that turns Imperial governance into a contradictory mess. Inquisitors have the official authority to investigate powerful members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Novis Nobilite, or the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, but remember that the very function of the Imperium relies on these organizations. Thus, these indiividual organizations all have incredible amounts of leverage and power in their own right. In addition, the order of one Inquisitor can come into conflict with the order of another, and the same is true of whole Ordos or Conclaves of Inquisitors. Though some might disagree, I have personally always considered the Imperium to be a very specific statement about the nature of political beaurocracy in the real world. Multitudes of agencies all given extreme authority that often overlaps and conflicts. Two Inquisitors can consider each other heretical, go to war with one another, dragging millions and millions of soldiers from multiple planets into the conflict, and neither one is doing anything illegal.

Then we focus on the crux of this forum and post: Rogue Traders. The are legally given the authority to act outside the bounds of Imperial Law. Think about that for a moment: The legal right to act illegally…This is an inherent and intentional contradiction, just like everything else in the Imperium. It functions much like the way espionage works in the real world. If you think about it, a spy is legally impowered by his government to break international law. The spy acts on behalf of his government, but if he gets caught on enemy territory he is the one responsible for getting himself out of it. His government will not intercede if he gets caught breaking a law that his government cant afford to get caught breaking.

In the end what this means is that a Rogue Trader has the authority to break the law, but he alone is responsible for inforcing that authority. The Warrant gives him the power to deal with an Inquisitor as a peer. On the surface this means they have equal authority, but the question is who has the most influence and power? Is this Inquisitor acting alone, or on behalf of a greater conclave? Is the Rogue Trader acting alone, or on behalf of a vast and powerful Dynasty that the lone Inquistor doesn't have the resources to deal with?

Things in the Imperium are never simple.

 



#19 Cpt. Harkonnen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:48 PM

fulcan said:

 

In the end what this means is that a Rogue Trader has the authority to break the law, but he alone is responsible for inforcing that authority. The Warrant gives him the power to deal with an Inquisitor as a peer. On the surface this means they have equal authority, but the question is who has the most influence and power? Is this Inquisitor acting alone, or on behalf of a greater conclave? Is the Rogue Trader acting alone, or on behalf of a vast and powerful Dynasty that the lone Inquistor doesn't have the resources to deal with?

Things in the Imperium are never simple.

 

At this point Id escort the Inquisitor to a private meeting on my ship, then promptly seal the void lock behind him :) And of course, it depends on whos got the bigger ship/fleet :)



#20 Soul Hunter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:25 AM

 

This is a pretty interesting discussion we have going on here!

I personally would say that in a location such as the Koronus Expanse, most anything COULD be "legal" to sell.  But I think it depends on the way you are running your campaign and the circumstances you have put in it.

For example, the way I am running my RT campaign is that there are some planets where there are governors who couldn't really care less about the legality of products sold to them or their empire, while there are others that are staunch fundamentalist followers of the Imperial Creed.

However, I also have an Inquisitor running around the Expanse at the moment which could change things.  So, I think if my RT team decided to sell a simple xenos crop enhancement to a planetary government official I would say the Inquisitor would find that fairly benign.  But, if they decided to sell a large xenos warship to a planetary governor who plans on using it to help invade another nearby imperial planet, the Inquisitor would most definitely see that as a gross misuse of my player's Warrant of Trade.

Personally, I think it depends on the circumstances.


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PCs: What's in the box?
GM: Hold on, she-
PCs: It's glass we can see it, what's in the box?!  THE BOX?! THE BOX?! WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!





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