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Help choosing between too many Imperial lists.


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#1 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:24 AM

I'm playing in an online tournament over Vassal. We're switching lists each round, and I've been obsessing over this one for a couple of weeks now. But I'm almost out of time--Round 4 starts in less than 12 hours (9pm Eastern)--and I'm leaning one way but still can't decide. 

My opponent is pretty experienced and high in the standings, so I don't want to lose this one! So of the following lists, which would you run and why?
 
List A (100):
* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
* Howlrunner (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
 
List B (100):
* Kath Scarlet (38) + Marksmanship (3) + Gunner (5)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
 
List C (100):
* Turr Phennir (25) + Push the Limit (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
 
List D (100):
* Turr Phennir (25) + Push the Limit (3) + Stealth Device (3)
* Saber Squadron Pilot (21) + Push the Limit (3) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18) + Stealth Device (3)
 
[EDIT: Made the subject line a bit more descriptive, and I should also add that while I don't know anything else about my opponent's list, the tournament rules require him to play Rebels.]


#2 Parakitor

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:46 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

 

I'm playing in an online tournament over Vassal. We're switching lists each round, and I've been obsessing over this one for a couple of weeks now. But I'm almost out of time--Round 4 starts in less than 12 hours (9pm Eastern)--and I'm leaning one way but still can't decide. 
 
My opponent is pretty experienced and high in the standings, so I don't want to lose this one! So of the following lists, which would you run and why?
 
List A (100):
* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
* Howlrunner (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
 
List B (100):
* Kath Scarlet (38) + Marksmanship (3) + Gunner (5)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
 
List C (100):
* Turr Phennir (25) + Push the Limit (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
 
List D (100):
* Turr Phennir (25) + Push the Limit (3) + Stealth Device (3)
* Saber Squadron Pilot (21) + Push the Limit (3) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18) + Stealth Device (3)

List A and List C jump out at me.

List A. This is the list I would probably go with (partly becasue I actually have the figures to use it). How would you run it? I usually run the Firespray-31 with two TIE fighters on either side for crowd control. But with "Howlrunner" in the mix, this really changes the strategy. Obviously she can't help Krassis re-roll attacks with the Heavy Laser Cannon, but at Range 1, Krassis is still rolling 4 attack dice, and "Howlrunner" would let him reroll a die on that attack. Or are you planning to start your Firespray-31 at one corner, and a swarm of TIE fighters at another part of your edge of the field? This forces your opponent to split his forces or succumb to a lateral attack (I hope your opponent isn't reading this thread!!!). I think Stealth Device on "Howlrunner" makes her presence in this squad much more useful, because otherwise she would just be a big, juicy, expensive target.

List C. I think it's hard for Imperials to win with just 5 starfighters (especially without shields), so List C will be tricky, but it looks pretty solid. If you have experience playing with TIE interceptors, this may be the ticket for you. However, TIE interceptors really excel when they are able to react to the opponent, so moving first takes away one of their greatest strengths. If you're going up against Rebels (which I believe is how your tournament is set up) Alpha Sq. Pilots will only be a problem if the opponent has access to Boost or Barrel Roll, because that will nullify any attempts you make to jockey for a better firing position.


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#3 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:03 AM

Parakitor said:

Vorpal Sword said:

List A (100):

* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
* Howlrunner (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
* Academy Pilot (12)
 
 

List A and List C jump out at me.

List A. This is the list I would probably go with (partly becasue I actually have the figures to use it). How would you run it? I usually run the Firespray-31 with two TIE fighters on either side for crowd control. But with "Howlrunner" in the mix, this really changes the strategy. Obviously she can't help Krassis re-roll attacks with the Heavy Laser Cannon, but at Range 1, Krassis is still rolling 4 attack dice, and "Howlrunner" would let him reroll a die on that attack. Or are you planning to start your Firespray-31 at one corner, and a swarm of TIE fighters at another part of your edge of the field? This forces your opponent to split his forces or succumb to a lateral attack (I hope your opponent isn't reading this thread!!!). I think Stealth Device on "Howlrunner" makes her presence in this squad much more useful, because otherwise she would just be a big, juicy, expensive target.

It's also the only list of the set I've actually run… once. I actually started the two groups together, but pointing 90 degrees away from each other (each at 45 degrees to the board edge). The idea was that ships who chased after either Krassis or the TIEs would be caught by flanking fire from the other; unfortunately my opponent drove straight up the middle, pulled me into the asteroids, and started picking off TIEs while Krassis was caught facing the wrong direction.

I won't go further into how I would fly it if I played the same list again, because it is perfectly possible that my opponent is reading the thread--but I'll say I wouldn't do it that way twice.  (c:

List B actually came out of that experience, to some extent: Kath + Gunner + Marksmanship isn't much of a step back in terms of firepower, and it works equally well from either firing arc. The Interceptors also bring a lot more firepower to the table than the TIEs do, and inflicting stress would be particularly nice against a Rebel squad that depends on trading actions around. But it's also a bit more fragile, with 19 hit points on the table instead of 22, and more vulnerable to an alpha strike using missiles. The pilot-skill issue you raised is also on my mind.

(This, by the way, is why I've been obsessing over choosing a list for ten days--everything has pros and cons, and I'm almost equally inexperienced with all the lists I like.)



#4 ReaverRandall

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:28 AM

I've run the C list before, it's is very very mean. Even if your rolls are average it should eat the face off the other guy.

 

I also like D but is alot of points in SD and sometimes those green dice just dont like you for crying outloud.

 

I would skip A, you get a guy whose playing 4x or something similar with lots of torps and/or missles and you're going to lose that FS so quick it will make you cry. that and howlrunner is a total waste in that list because if you keep her with the FS you wasted 7 points on the HLC and if you throw her in with the acadmies you're certain to lose her more quickly than you like.

 

if you want to Firespray i like B better. would be interesting to see what kind of havoc that stress token stuff does on the board.



#5 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:41 PM

I went with List A and got smoked. I was running against Wedge with a torpedo and Tycho with PtL+Concussion, and was so afraid of taking hits with Krassis that I tried to take cover in the asteroids and ended up stuck on them for two turns--which cost two shields and wrecked my best chance to whittle down his shields on the way in. 

I took out Wedge mid-game, but that was it. Not a pretty night, and I definitely need a LOT more practice before I try to play the Firespray competitively again. 



#6 ScottieATF

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:52 PM

Vorpal Sword said:

I went with List A and got smoked. I was running against Wedge with a torpedo and Tycho with PtL+Concussion, and was so afraid of taking hits with Krassis that I tried to take cover in the asteroids and ended up stuck on them for two turns--which cost two shields and wrecked my best chance to whittle down his shields on the way in. 

I took out Wedge mid-game, but that was it. Not a pretty night, and I definitely need a LOT more practice before I try to play the Firespray competitively again. 

What else was your opponent running?

People may have spoken ill of torpedoes but those big ships do not like Wedge with one in the tube.



#7 executor

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

Vorpal Sword said:

I went with List A and got smoked. I was running against Wedge with a torpedo and Tycho with PtL+Concussion, and was so afraid of taking hits with Krassis that I tried to take cover in the asteroids and ended up stuck on them for two turns--which cost two shields and wrecked my best chance to whittle down his shields on the way in. 

I took out Wedge mid-game, but that was it. Not a pretty night, and I definitely need a LOT more practice before I try to play the Firespray competitively again. 

 

i've also been having issues with the firespray, mainly because it gets blocked far too easily and i'm quickly discovering i'm not too much of a fan.. on the flipside the firespray makes a shining target for your opponent so that your fighters can do their work while it is slowly being beat down


Current Fleet

Rebellion: 5 X-wings, 4 Y-wings, 5 A-wings, 3 B-wings, 1 HWK-290, 2 YT-1300's, 2 E-wings, 1 Z-95, 1 Rebel Transport, 1 CR-90

Empire: 8 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Advanced, 9 Tie Interceptors, 3 Tie Bombers, 1 Lambda Shuttle, 3 Firespray 31's, 2 Tie Phantoms, 2 Tie Defenders


#8 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:18 AM

ScottieATF said:

Vorpal Sword said:

 

I went with List A and got smoked. I was running against Wedge with a torpedo and Tycho with PtL+Concussion, and was so afraid of taking hits with Krassis that I tried to take cover in the asteroids and ended up stuck on them for two turns--which cost two shields and wrecked my best chance to whittle down his shields on the way in. 

I took out Wedge mid-game, but that was it. Not a pretty night, and I definitely need a LOT more practice before I try to play the Firespray competitively again. 

 

 

What else was your opponent running?

People may have spoken ill of torpedoes but those big ships do not like Wedge with one in the tube.

He ran Wedge + R2 Astromech + Marksmanship + Proton Torpedoes; Tycho + Push the Limit + Stealth + Concussion Missiles; and Garven with no upgrades. I think it's a good list, but beatable with with what I had. 

The problem was that Krassis spent so long stuck on the asteroid that he got his shot with Wedge anyway--and rather than facing it with an Evade token in hand, I didn't get any actions. He also had a pair of lucky rolls that same turn firing at my TIEs, and took out two Academy Pilots. My game actually improved after that, once I was out of the asteroids and able to meaningfully return fire, but it was too late. 

My lesson learned isn't that I shouldn't be cautious around secondaries with my Firespray, but that I need to both estimate its movement better (which is a matter of practice) and be less conservative in the early rounds--it's worth taking attacks to guarantee you can return fire. Particularly with the HLC, the opening rounds are crucial, and mistakes there can turn that weapon into wasted points.

To put it another way, he ended the game with 2 Hull on Garven and 2 Hull on Tycho. It's certainly not guaranteed, but I could easily have done 4 damage in 2 turns with the HLC. The fact that I didn't get those attacks was because I forgot my First Rule of Imperial Dogfighting: asteroids are more dangerous than Rebels. 



#9 Parakitor

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:53 AM

Too bad! I have found the same thing with the Firespray: being cautious isn't a virtue for this ship. Well, I mean obviously you want to avoid asteroids. But you've got the shields and the hull to deal with alpha strikes. It would have to be one lucky, loaded out team to destroy your ship on the first pass. And once the ordnance has been launched, it only gets better for you. I was too cautious and had my Firespray out of the fight for three rounds in a row, which is a horrible way to play. Hard to win when you're not using that HLC.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#10 jetsetter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:14 AM

I might try this list:

 

* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
* Howlrunner (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)


#11 Endgame124

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:09 AM

jetsetter said:

 

I might try this list:

* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
* Howlrunner (18) + Stealth Device (3)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)

 

I actually ran this a couple of times last week (or was that 2 weeks ago?).  It gives your opponent a tough choice on what to shoot at, thats for sure.  I switch Howlrunner to Squad Leader for a game and I liked it better than w/ Stealth, and I think the final modification would be to put swarm on Howlrunner.  I found that since the Alphas go after Rookie X-Wings, I was sometimes losing them before they got to shoot.  With Swarm Tactics, the tables would be flipped. 

Edit:

One other option I had considered was swapping the Alpha for Mauler, for somethign like this:

 

* Krassis Trelix (36) + Heavy Laser Cannon (7) 
* Howlrunner (18) + Elusiveness (2)
* Mauler Mithel (17) + Swarm Tactics (2)
* Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)

It loses a slight bit of fire power at Range 2 & 3, but thats why you have Krassis slinging heavy laser cannon shots at long range.


#12 magadizer

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:51 AM

I think the firespray would be so much better if only it had the 1-turn maneuver. The Falcon has it and doesn't need it so much as the firespray does. It is pretty easy to stay in the Firespray's blind spot if you are a small ship.
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#13 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

magadizer said:

I think the firespray would be so much better if only it had the 1-turn maneuver. The Falcon has it and doesn't need it so much as the firespray does. It is pretty easy to stay in the Firespray's blind spot if you are a small ship.

Yeah, I'm discovering that. In fact one of the trouble spots last night was when I made my move in the current round anticipating that I would make a 1-turn in the following round.

I've heard both Hothie and Picasso stress this, but it's sinking in: the Large ships have a learning curve that's entirely divorced from the fighters. It's like sitting down with the game again for the first time and learning how not to run into stuff.



#14 mrfroggies

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

It's so true about learning how to fly all over again.  One thing that I've noticed is that people tend to slow boat the big ships, and this makes them very predictable.  I found that once I started really trusting my flying and started using all the moves on the dial, my piloting ability changed dramaticaly.  It made me less prdictable, and I found I wasn't as scared moving around asteroids.  The big ships can move far up the field.  A move of 4 with a big ship is like a 5 for a fighter, and if they boost, it's like a move of 8.  You can catch people compelety off guard with this.



#15 Sunsteel

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:41 PM

I am partial to list D but understand why it is risky, kind of like too many eggs in four baskets. Here is a list I'm working on but have yet to get play tested. I'm hoping to get in some test time on Vassal if someone is up for it.

Sunsteel List A (100 points)

* Soontir Fel (27) + PtL (3) * Turr Phennir (25) + PtL (3) + SD (3) * Howlrunner (18) + Elusive (2) * Dark Curse (16) + SD (3)

I believe PtL on Interceptors is clutch since they can shake off the stress tokens easier than any other Imperial ship and they have so many choices on the action bar. PtL on Soontir compliments his pilot ability, PtL would ideally be used after an attack with the free action to maneuver out of firing arcs, SD on Dark Curse to increase survivability and frustrate my opponent and Howlrunner with Elusive which I might switch for Squad Leader though that is like unnecessary. It's that or go for fewer upgrades and more interceptors.



#16 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:27 PM

Sunsteel said:

I am partial to list D but understand why it is risky, kind of like too many eggs in four baskets. Here is a list I'm working on but have yet to get play tested. I'm hoping to get in some test time on Vassal if someone is up for it.

I might be up for that--I definitely need some practice, and have some free time Friday night and Saturday morning and afternoon. Send me a PM here, or drop a comment at my blog, if you're interested in setting up a time.






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