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Large Monster Interrupting Movement - Conflicting Answers


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#1 Chaos Pancake

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

 

There a loads of threads on this subject. I have searched for the answer and found a million conflicting answers so I am making a new thread because I want one none conflicting answer from one person who is 100% sure of the answer. Is the following legal or not?
 
 
 
 
 
The thing that confuses me is step 3. Can a dragon decalare an attack on a hero that is not adjacent to his shrunk form?

 



#2 Varikas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

I think that all is correct except an error in step 3. To expand, the dragon have to move at least 1 movement point, so, he can move 1, expand to attack and then use the other 2 movement points, but he cant expand in other direction without moving any space complice



#3 Rico

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:27 AM

Not legal if the monster is melee. Once you move you are committed to move unless performing another action. This means you can't expand until you declare the action. In order to attack as melee your monster must be adjacent to the target (unless they have reach). Ergo, since you are shrunk while moving you would not be adjacent to your target to allow the attack action for movement interruption.



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

Chaos Pancake said:

 

There a loads of threads on this subject. I have searched for the answer and found a million conflicting answers so I am making a new thread because I want one none conflicting answer from one person who is 100% sure of the answer. Is the following legal or not?

 

 

If you want a definitive answer, contact FFG via the Rules Questions link at the bottom of the page.  The only thing you're going to get in these forums is fans telling you what they think the answer is.



#5 Morthai

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

both Varikas and Rico are wrong. According to Justin the OP exaple is completely legal and possible without spending movmentpoints on the first expanse. 0 point movement it is called and works as described. Also notice the difference between attack action and attack. Announing an attack action without being in melee range is totally possible, expanding into said melee range via interrupting a 0 point movement. Only the attack itself need to be in melee range. (difference Attack action to attack process)!



#6 gaarge

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:51 AM

I have been thinking a lot about movement in the past couple of days, relating to big monsters in particular.  I believe the best way to consider the problem is to review the regular rules for movement:

“When a hero player performs a move action, he receives a number of movement points equal to his hero’s Speed (represented by a “boot” on the Hero sheet).” 

They can declare such an action twice, and receive double movement points.  Then they can resolve their turn by spending movement points as they see fit.  Note that the “action” is resolved upon receiving the movement points.  This is the true mechanic behind being able to interrupt movement.  You spend movement points, you perform an action, and if you have any more movement points you may use them, or you may choose not to (and they disappear at the end of the hero’s turn).

If a large monster declares two movement actions, and receives double his speed to move, I would argue that he cannot pause between “movement actions” because in actual fact, his actions have been expended, and he has no actions left with which to interrupt his movement.  He cannot expand half-way between his journey without a reason for expanding.  (Remember: expansion is only possible when interrupting movement, or when movement is ending.)

If a large monster wishes to enjoy a movement followed by an expansion then another movement and expansion (sometimes gaining extra distance) he must declare his actions accordingly: declare movement action, receive movement points, shrink, use all movement points (thus ending movement), expand, declare another movement action, receive movement points, use all, expand.

If a figure uses only one action as a movement action, they receive their movement points, and they have one action left.  I.e. before their next action is declared, their first action is already over (even though they have unspent movement points).  It is therefore not productive or helpful to think of movement as beginning with receiving these movement points.  When your shadow dragon receives these movement points, he does not immediately shrink into a tiny ball and say, “hey, let’s get going.”  He gets the points, and he waits for further instruction.

It is also not a little disingenuous to claim that you can interrupt movement:

a)      Before any movement points have been spent.

b)      After all movement points have been spent. (Assuming that the logic of steps 1-3 could be applied at the end of movement too).

I realise these mechanics are different to what FFG offer, but I think the following definitions fit together very well:

1.       “movement action”: is complete upon receiving movement points up to figure’s speed.

2.       “movement”: is the spending of at least one movement point, and is can be employed at any time during a figure’s turn, as long as the hero has movement points to spend.

3.       “movement points”:

a.       1 movement point lets a figure move to an adjacent space.  At the end of a hero’s turn he loses any remaining movement points.

b.      Movement points may be spent before or after other actions.

4.       Large Monsters: (where shrinking and expanding are understood as per current rules)

a.       “Shrinking”: only occurs immediately before a movement point is spent.

b.      “Expanding” may only occur:

                                                               i.      Immediately if movement points reduce to 0.

                                                             ii.      Immediately before another action

                                                            iii.      If the OL wishes to end his monster’s movement (after which, no more shrinking or expanding is permitted).

It works for me.



#7 Morthai

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

your argumentation is completely correct up to the point that you missed the most recent offical ruling abot 0 point movement which say that you can shrink to move, and immediatly before using any movement points, interrupt the movement to attack and expand.



#8 Rico

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

Can you post a link to Justin's response? Is it in the Adam Sez thread?

Nevermind. Found it. Looks like our group will be reworking large monster strategies. Thanks for the clarification.

http://boardgamegeek...official/page/3



#9 Morthai

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

Maybe Support me on this, and write to jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com to support a change or least a revisit of the last ruling concerning 0point movement of large monsters.
 

Morthai wrote:

Hey Justin Kemppainen

The community has a quite big issue about the balance change a recent ruling from you about 0 point movement brought to Descent.

You ruled that a Medium/Large/Huge monster can use a move action to get movement points up to its speed, then shrink to move, immediatly interrupt the move action by an attack, expand in a different way from what it has started, attack, then shrink again to a different space than before and use its full pool of movement points to run off..

"0 point movement" gives the OL a broad flexibility and more space to attack than he should have with its monsters and I suggest a small fix, that a monster should need to at least spend 1 movementpoint before it can expand in a different orientation than its original one. Horrible scenarios with dash and frenzy allow a Huge monster with 0 point movement incredible amounts of extra movement which should not be possible. The community and the Play By Forum community was pretty convinced that this kind of 0 point movement was not allowed until your ruling. And the community also agrees this further brings a huge balance shift since larger monster are way more flexible than before.

I would defenitely suggest to give a clear and comprehensive ruling about large monster movement, since it is still totally unclear to the most of the community and maybe revisit "0 point movement"


Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Hey Marcel,

The main reason the 0 point movement didn't concern me is because I didn't see a particular advantage in the interrupt immediately versus after 1 or 2 movement points are spent. I could be completely wrong, but it seems to me that, in either case, expanding at any point provides a equal advantage for those monsters in terms of distance gained.

I believe the issue that requires more consideration is that of the monster's ability to "pre-expand" (so to speak) to perform its action. Now, with current rules, this is technically allowed, but in speaking with Adam on this situation, we're strongly considering a change to require large monsters to obey certain action restrictions based upon a "shrunk" status.

In essence, this would mean a shadow dragon interrupting a move action would need to actually be adjacent to a hero (in terms of it being a 1 space figure) in order to declare an attack action instead of being able to expand across 2 spaces after spending 1 (or 0) movement points.

We're both very comfortable with this as a change to negate some of the relative power of those large monster groups, but this is an issue that will require attention and testing before any official ruling is made.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen


#10 Rico

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

Again, thanks for the info. So, my original post, under the initial game design, is incorrect. But, could become the standard after additional testing on FFG's part. Think I'll stick with my original interpretation until they make a deciscion on it.



#11 gaarge

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:20 PM

Morthai said:

your argumentation is completely correct up to the point that you missed the most recent offical ruling abot 0 point movement which say that you can shrink to move, and immediatly before using any movement points, interrupt the movement to attack and expand.

In that case, "shrinking" becomes a part of the "movement action" as well.  By the same token, it would be possible to move to full speed, interrupt to attack, expand, attack, shrink (onto a square of your choice), then expand again.  

I see the above two situations as slightly overzealous interpretations of the rules.  Remember: Shrinking and Expanding are contrivances which enable large monsters to move through dungeons with slightly more flexibility; they are not racial or class-type abilities.  Using them as such is kind of game-breaking.

 



#12 VorosRoka

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:43 AM

A shrinked Large Monster, should be adjacent to at least one Hero in order to be able to attack with a basic melee attack.
If he's adjacent to another Hero AFTER expanding then he can attack both Heroes.
Movement process itself suggests how it should be done - LM shrinks in the direction he is moving, and the rest of him "follows" the temporary 1-tile figure.

Expanding a monster in the "opposite direction" in order to get in range without spending the normally required mov points - well my whole group considers that CHEATING, because it seriously looks like cheating, and I wouldn't consider it anything different.

For me it's a similar situation as in W40k TT when someone measures movement from the front of a miniature's base and yet puts it in front of the measure tape's end (thus gaining additional movement equal to that base' length) - it's cheating.






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