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Does a Giants "sweep"-ability affect monsters as well?


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#1 Graf

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:25 PM

In the German version of the game, the "sweep"-ability of Giants and Trolls says that all figures within two spaces are affected. This would mean that monsters are affected as well. 

Is this wording of the sweep-ability translated correct? Or does the english version say that only enemies/heroes within two spaces are affected?



#2 Sym

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:26 PM

Yeah, I believe "figures" is a non-specific catch-all for pretty much all types of units with health.  Maybe it wouldn't work for, say, the Geomancer's summoned stones, but other than that I think everything but the giant/troll himself gets caught up in the sweep.



#3 BatHead

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

The way I look at it is …                                                                                                                                                                                                              You have three figures standing next each other in a row, first a hero, then a goblin, then another hero, all within the giant's reach. It would make no sense if the giant were to swing his club, hit the first hero ,magically skip the gob in the middle, then hit the hero on the other end. Just for consistency and the sake of logic, I would think the sweep affects all figures with in range, whether friend or foe.



#4 Dam

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:38 PM

BatHead said:

The way I look at it is …                                                                                                                                                                                                              You have three figures standing next each other in a row, first a hero, then a goblin, then another hero, all within the giant's reach. It would make no sense if the giant were to swing his club, hit the first hero ,magically skip the gob in the middle, then hit the hero on the other end. Just for consistency and the sake of logic, I would think the sweep affects all figures with in range, whether friend or foe.

Well, what if the two heroes are fairly tall, the club would sweep over the little gobbo's head and only hit the heroes reir .


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#5 Steve-O

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:06 AM

Graf said:

In the German version of the game, the "sweep"-ability of Giants and Trolls says that all figures within two spaces are affected. This would mean that monsters are affected as well.

That is correct.  Most AoE attacks, Sweep included, affect ALL figures, friendly or enemy within the affected area.



#6 Steve-O

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:20 AM

Sym said:

Yeah, I believe "figures" is a non-specific catch-all for pretty much all types of units with health.

"Figure" is a defined game term that refers to any "hero" or "monster" in the game.  LTs are considered "monsters" and therefore inherit the status of "figure" despite not actually being a plastic figurine.  Some NPCs and familiars are called out explicitly as being "treated like a hero figure," but that's on a case-by-case basis.

It's probably true that most "units" which have a health rating are also "treated as figures" if they aren't actually figures by virtue of having a plastic figure to represent them, however, there may be some exceptions.  By default, any figure represented by a cardboard token is NOT a figure, unless the rules say otherwise.

Sym said:

 Maybe it wouldn't work for, say, the Geomancer's summoned stones, but other than that I think everything but the giant/troll himself gets caught up in the sweep.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the summoned stones specifically say "monster" instead of "figure."



#7 BatHead

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

Dam said:

BatHead said:

 

The way I look at it is …                                                                                                                                                                                                              You have three figures standing next each other in a row, first a hero, then a goblin, then another hero, all within the giant's reach. It would make no sense if the giant were to swing his club, hit the first hero ,magically skip the gob in the middle, then hit the hero on the other end. Just for consistency and the sake of logic, I would think the sweep affects all figures with in range, whether friend or foe.

 

 

Well, what if the two heroes are fairly tall, the club would sweep over the little gobbo's head and only hit the heroes reir .

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#8 carsten1977

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 12:30 AM

 

 

 

That is correct.  Most AoE attacks, Sweep included, affect ALL figures, friendly or enemy within the affected area.

 

 

And what about the giant itself ? He has LOS to itself and is within 2 spaces . . . ?


Edited by carsten1977, 21 January 2015 - 12:31 AM.


#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 07:28 AM

You are not in line of sight of yourself, though.

 

Edit: Maybe you are, if the LOS is a point at one of your corners drawn to that same corner. Perhaps the giant's sweep is supposed to say "each other figure." Question submitted, good catch!


Edited by Zaltyre, 21 January 2015 - 07:30 AM.


#10 Steve-O

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 08:35 AM

And what about the giant itself ? He has LOS to itself and is within 2 spaces . . . ?


Well, Sweep says that you perform an attack that affects all figures within range.

The "range" for a Melee attack is "an adjacent space."  The space occupied by the giant is certainly within LoS, but it is not adjacent to itself.

Giants also have Reach, which "allows Melee attacks to target figures up to 2 spaces away."  This could be interpreted as meaning "range within 2 spaces," which would include the Giant itself within the Sweep radius.  Or it could be interpreted as a shorthand for "adjacent and 1 space beyond adjacent," which would continue to exclude the Giant in the center of the whirlwind.  IMHO, the latter would be more consistent with the basic rules for Melee attacks, but I admit it's an ambiguity.

 

We should also consider exactly where this "2 spaces away" limit is being measured from.  We don't pick a specific space within the Giant's footprint to measure from, as we would for a ranged or magic attack.  That would leave the sweep radius lop-sided, rather the centered on the Giant figure.  Instead, we measure two spaces out from all sides, putting the Giant in the center.  In my opinion, that adds support for the latter Reach interpretation as well.  We're taking all spaces adjacent to the Giant (which excludes the Giant's spaces themselves) and all spaces 1 beyond those as the AoE for the Sweep.

 

You can play that the Giant sweeps himself if you like.  IMHO, whether or not the rules support that idea hinges upon how you interpret the rules for Melee attack "range" as discussed above.  Zaltyre has already sent in the question, so we can hear what FFG has to say about it, officially.  However, I already know which interpretation I support, official or not. =P



#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 11:54 PM

Looks like the official answer is: no, the giant isn't supposed to be attacking itself with sweep.
 
Q:Is a figure in line of sight of itself? This affects the interpretation of both Runemaster's "Break the Rune" and the giant's "Sweep." Are these abilities intended to attack the figure performing the ability, or do they need "other figure" (or not)? Thank you.
 
A:Yes, a figure is within line of sight of itself. The giant’s Sweep should read, “Perform an attack. This attack affects each other figure within 2 spaces and line of sight of this monster. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.”
Nathan and I discussed it and we determined that “Break the Rune” should read, “[Action] Perform an attack with a Rune weapon. This attack ignores range and targets each other figure within…"
These corrections will be reflected in the next errata. We will have to look elsewhere to make “stop hitting yourself” jokes.
 
Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Creative Content Developer
 
 

Edited by Zaltyre, 21 January 2015 - 11:58 PM.

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