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Innsmouth Horror and Tsathoggua


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#1 Cthulhu80

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:17 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I recently bought "Innsmouth Horror" and I was wondering: is it possible to use Innsmouth having Tsathoggua as the Great Old One? I ask this because Tsathoggua card says:

 

"While Tsathoggua stirs in his slumberinvestigators cannot use the special ability of any locations other than the Arkham Asylum, Curiositie Shoppe, General Store, Ye Olde Magick Shoppe, and St. Mary's Hospital."

 

What about Falcon Point and Innsmouth Jail? Can players still use these locations' abilities? Or those who end up on Devil Reef cannot be rescued by other investigators?

Thanks!



#2 The Professor

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:01 AM

It's an interesting question, but as Tsathoggua came with Dunwich Horror, and there are clearly locations on that board,as well which the Investigators must ignore, it's safe to assume that Investigators cannot use the special ability of any location than those listed on his card for the Dunwich, Kingsport, and Innsmouth boards.


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#3 eiterorm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:13 AM

When playing with the Innsmouth board, I exclude Falcon Point and Innsmouth Jail from Tsathoggua's Malaise ability, and for very good reasons. If you don't exclude Falcon Point from Tsathoggua's Malaise ability, Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei will only be accessible by luck. (encounters or gate markers) If you're unlucky, gate openings and monster surges at these locations might quickly end your game while you can do nothing but watch as the Deep Ones rise from the sea.

The reason why I also exclude Innsmouth Jail is that the Jail Break special encounter is not optional, like other special encounters. All other special encounters are things you may do, but don't have to. The Jail Break special encounter is not. The way you break out of the Jail Cell in Innsmouth Jail is by following the instructions on the Jail Break special encounter.

There is certainly nothing preventing you from playing against Tsathoggua on the Innsmouth board, but the special encounters at Falcon Point and Innsmouth Jail should be excluded from his Malaise ability.



#4 eiterorm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:17 AM

The Professor said:

It's an interesting question, but as Tsathoggua came with Dunwich Horror, and there are clearly locations on that board,as well which the Investigators must ignore, it's safe to assume that Investigators cannot use the special ability of any location than those listed on his card for the Dunwich, Kingsport, and Innsmouth boards.

I disagree with you on this one. Just because Dunwich was released before Innsmouth doesn't mean that they kept all the details from Dunwich in mind when they made the rules for Innsmouth. I'd actually say that it's safe to assume that there will be special cases for the expansions following Dunwich. To me it makes little sense that Tsathoggua's Malaise ability includes the special encounters at Falcon Point and Innsmouth Jail.



#5 eiterorm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:39 AM

Q: Are there additional locations in the Kingsport or Innsmouth Horror expansions unaffected by Tsathoggua’s Malaise power?

A: It does not affect the special abilities of Wireless Station [KH], The Causeway [KH], Devil Reef [IH], Innsmouth Jail [IH], and Y’ha-nthlei [IH]. It also does not affect the special ability of the street area Sawbone Alley [IH].

 

I just found this question in the FAQ, by the way. It seems that Innsmouth Jail is excluded, but not Falcon Point. So here's yet another FAQ entry I strongly disagree with, just like the infamous Nightgaunt glitch. Assuming you play a game of five investigators, if you start your game by drawing two consecutive Mythos cards which indicate a gate opening at Y'ha-nthlei, there will be seven monsters at Y'ha-nthlei by the end of turn one. (two when the gate opens plus five on the monster surge) If you can only access Y'ha-nthlei by being lucky when drawing encounters at Falcon Point, you might not reach Y'ha-nthlei before the monsters have entered the vortex and the Ancient One awakens. This might be a deadly situation even if you can use the special encounter at Falcon Point, but if Tsathoggua prevents you from using the special encounter at Falcon Point, he might actually make the game impossible from the very start. Arkham Horror should indeed be difficult, but it should at least be possible to win.

Also, the special encounter at Falcon Point is just another way of traveling, like traveling by train to Dunwich or Kingsport, or by bus to Innsmouth. Tsathoggua doesn't make expansion boards inaccessible by train or bus, so why should he make expansion boards inaccessible by boat?



#6 Julia

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:48 AM

eiterorm said:

Assuming you play a game of five investigators, if you start your game by drawing two consecutive Mythos cards which indicate a gate opening at Y'ha-nthlei, there will be seven monsters at Y'ha-nthlei by the end of turn one.

There are only two Mythos cards opening gates in Y'ha-nthlei in the whole Innsmouth game, so I'd say you're really, really unlucky if you have this situation coming up in the game. Plus, one will be Evidence destroyed: all clues are removed from the board. So, whether you use FP or not, it's very likely you lose the game.

Anyway, the FP ability was subject to a very long question time and since the beginning (2009 or so) the (demi-official) answer was that FP special ability was affected by Malaise.

Tsath games are tough, but still there are ways you can reach Y'ha-etc even with FP closed (gate box, mi-go brain case, encounters, similar gates open somewhere else on the board, you can close gates thanks to encounters). So, I'd not change this


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#7 eiterorm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

Julia said:

 

There are only two Mythos cards opening gates in Y'ha-nthlei in the whole Innsmouth game, so I'd say you're really, really unlucky if you have this situation coming up in the game. Plus, one will be Evidence destroyed: all clues are removed from the board. So, whether you use FP or not, it's very likely you lose the game.

Anyway, the FP ability was subject to a very long question time and since the beginning (2009 or so) the (demi-official) answer was that FP special ability was affected by Malaise.

Tsath games are tough, but still there are ways you can reach Y'ha-etc even with FP closed (gate box, mi-go brain case, encounters, similar gates open somewhere else on the board, you can close gates thanks to encounters). So, I'd not change this

 

 

The same thing goes for Devil Reef, and I count 14 mythos card opening gates at either Devil Reef or Y'ha-nthlei, not including the cards from Miskatonic. It is true that it's a specific situation, but it is certainly not an extreme one. The fact that Evidence Destroyed! makes the game difficult if drawn at the beginning of the game in no way justifies Falcon Point being affected by Tsathoggua's Malaise. You might still win the game through strategy if you draw Evidence Destroyed!, but if Tsathoggua's Malaise affects Falcon Point, accessing Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei will be sheer luck.

There are, of course, other ways of accessing Falcon Point, but still all of them depend on luck, so it makes no difference. To me, in such a situation the game ceases to be Arkham Horror and instead becomes Quest for the Gate Box or a Similar Lucky Card ™, which is a game I don't bother playing. In my eyes, this rule breaks the game!



#8 Julia

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

eiterorm said:

The fact that Evidence Destroyed! makes the game difficult if drawn at the beginning of the game in no way justifies Falcon Point being affected by Tsathoggua's Malaise.

I didn't say that. I said that regardless of Malaise, it's game over in most of the cases.

The point about Devil Reef is indeed more interesting than Y'ha, but still, I think we all have lost at least once for a double consecutive Devil Reef Mythos, and I'm fine with this (can't speak for other people, of course). I believe it's part of the Innsmouth board fascination. Falcon Point offers you 3 encounters (out of 14) leading to Devil Reef, IIRC, which means you have more or less the 22% of drawing an encounter sending you to DR. If you're urged to go there, you can use several characters, and have a decent chance to go there despite the Malaise.

Nonetheless, as usual, if something does not fit your playing style, or your expectations from a game, you can bend the rules in the way you prefer.


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#9 Cthulhu80

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:13 PM

Thanks a lot ladY and gentlemen,

 

nice and helpful as always! I think I'll try a couple of times more extending Tsath Malaise to Falcon Point. If the games is unbearable that way, I'll bend the rules just like Julia suggested. At least now I know that there's not an official way to apply that rule (my ego is safe!!).

Thanks again.

 

Federico 

 

 



#10 Jake yet again

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:28 AM

Don't care what the FAQ says. I'm with the other poster. Falcon Point is a means of travel and is unaffected by Tsath, as is Innsmouth jail (and, for that matter, the Hard Going text on the journey up to Kingsport Head)


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#11 The Professor

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:54 AM

@ eiterorm: Thanks for catching the reference in the new FAQ.  Admittedly, when I respond in the forum, I should have actually researched that answer first.  , as there are the FAQ answers and "how one plays the game" and they're not necessairly the same.  I've devised my own Victory Scoring Chart, I don't follow all of the rules governing the Nightgaunt, and as when I play solo, I always use four Investigators with a nuanced set of rules.


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#12 Tibs

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:43 AM

Another example of a rushed FAQ answer. I begrudgingly agree with the Falcon Point ruling (it's tough but so what!), but the "hard going" abilities at Kingsport head and the "Inaccessible" and "Accursed" labels are not abilities! Every other ability that Tsathoggua cancels is something the investigator can do instead of having an encounter. All the above listed abilities are automatic rules that are thematically imposed. Kingsport head doesn't become less steep just because Tsathoggua is in play, nor does Devil Reef become covered from exposure to the open sky.

Additionally, the arrest mechanic in Innsmouth completely falls apart if Innsmouth Jail's ability doesn't work! Again, it is an automatic effect—how else is the investigator supposed to escape jail? He can't really be stuck there all game long. Sawbone alley, on the other hand, is up for grabs, but I'm going to say it's not de-activated, because Malaise only affects town residents, and not the investigators.

Sheesh, it seems like the writers would disallow train depot usage if it was mentioned!



#13 eiterorm

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:09 AM

Julia said:

The point about Devil Reef is indeed more interesting than Y'ha, but still, I think we all have lost at least once for a double consecutive Devil Reef Mythos, and I'm fine with this (can't speak for other people, of course). I believe it's part of the Innsmouth board fascination. Falcon Point offers you 3 encounters (out of 14) leading to Devil Reef, IIRC, which means you have more or less the 22% of drawing an encounter sending you to DR. If you're urged to go there, you can use several characters, and have a decent chance to go there despite the Malaise.

Nonetheless, as usual, if something does not fit your playing style, or your expectations from a game, you can bend the rules in the way you prefer.

I, too, really like how Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei works; it's part of the Innsmouth experience. But, like I said, I want to play by strategy, and not by luck. Even though there's a 21 % chance of drawing a desirable encounter, this still nothing but luck, and there's for instance a 9 % chance of drawing 10 cards and still being stuck at Falcon Point.

I have no trouble ignoring a broken rule, and I have no intention of changing to which locations I apply his Malaise when Tsathoggua is the Ancient One. ;-]



#14 The Professor

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

I'm currenty talking to Julia about a new Victory Scoring System as much has changed in the interim since the rules were first produced.  Additionally, it will be worth my time, now that I've included IH to the mix, to decide which locations Tsathoggua shall affect.  


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#15 jgt7771

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:45 AM

It's a good thing that, unlike everyone else in town and surounding areas, boat captains are able to resist Tsathoggua's Malaise. burla  Must be something in the grog.


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#16 The Professor

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:19 AM

Everyone, I'm at a loss as I can't access the FAQ, but may Silas Marsh travel to Devil"s Reef or Y'hanatei by spending 2 Movement Points?  While I'm interested in the answer from an "official" perspective, I'm not inclined to limit an Investgator's Special Ability.


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#17 Julia

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

The Professor said:

Everyone, I'm at a loss as I can't access the FAQ, but may Silas Marsh travel to Devil"s Reef or Y'hanatei by spending 2 Movement Points?  While I'm interested in the answer from an "official" perspective, I'm not inclined to limit an Investgator's Special Ability.

Indeed, Silas can reach Devil Reef from any aquatic location by spending two movement points. As per Y'ha-nthlei, I'd say that the location special ability overrides Silas's. I think the key word is "regardless of other game effects" clearly stated on the location. But he can travel to DR and then move to Y'ha in the following turn.


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#18 eiterorm

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

The Professor said:

Everyone, I'm at a loss as I can't access the FAQ, but may Silas Marsh travel to Devil"s Reef or Y'hanatei by spending 2 Movement Points?  While I'm interested in the answer from an "official" perspective, I'm not inclined to limit an Investgator's Special Ability.

From the FAQ:

Q: Can Silas Marsh use his “Able Seaman” ability to move to Devil Reef from any aquatic location?

A: Yes.

 

Silas, just like any other investigator, can only enter Y'ha-nthlei through Devil Reef.

If Silas wasn't allowed to move to Devil Reef by using his special ability, he would be a pretty weak investigator, especially considering the fact that he is part of the Innsmouth expansion.



#19 The Professor

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

To eiterorm and Julia ~ thank you both!


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