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When can you measure range?


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#1 Buhallin

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:48 AM

Hunted through all 20 pages of rules here, and found minimal discussion on this.  So thought I'd bring it back up.

The question itself is pretty simple: When can you measure range?  The specific situation I was facing last night was my opponent moved a TIE, and was considering a barrel roll.  Before doing so, he pulled out the ruler to check the range and see where he would end up after the roll.

My personal read on this: The rule book lists several specific cases where you can make measurements before actually taking an action.  Barrel roll, target lock, target selection…  IMHO if you can measure everything at will, there's no reason for these to be listed.  So even though it's not explicit, I tend to think you can't measure unless there is something that allows you to do so, such as one of the specific cases or an ability which requires a range check to work.

In general I think it hasn't been a huge deal, but I think it's about to get more important with Boost becoming a lot more common.  Thoughts?

 



#2 paradox23

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:09 AM

During the planning phase a player cannot use the maneuver templates. You can place maneuver templates to see if you can legally perform a barrel roll or boost action. You can check range at anytime. 



#3 Buhallin

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:16 AM

paradox23 said:

You can check range at anytime. 

Can you cite something to back this up?  I keep seeing people saying it, but to date I have yet to see anything in the actual rules to support it.

 



#4 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

Buhallin said:

paradox23 said:

 

You can check range at anytime. 

 

 

Can you cite something to back this up?  I keep seeing people saying it, but to date I have yet to see anything in the actual rules to support it.

 

In the Combat phase, you can measure at least every time you activate a ship. From Page 10 (under "1. Declare Target"):

  • "A player may measure to verify that these conditions are met before declaring a target."

It's a little less clear when you can measure during the Activation phase. Any ship with the Target Lock action can measure during the action phase (page 9, under "Acquire a Target Lock"):

  • "The active player may measure to see if an enemy ship is within range before committing to this action."

So I think "measure range at any time" is at least a reasonable adaptation of the rules in friendly games. In tournament games, you'd be within your rights to politely request that your opponent not use the range ruler except when measuring before declaring an attack target or measuring for Target Lock--although I'm not sure there's much of an advantage to the "free measure" version of the rule.

Measuring with range templates, though, is never okay except in the case of Boost and Barrel Roll.



#5 ziggy2000

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:21 PM

Buhallin said:

paradox23 said:

 

You can check range at anytime. 

 

 

Can you cite something to back this up?  I keep seeing people saying it, but to date I have yet to see anything in the actual rules to support it.

 

Doesn't need citation. There is nothing saying you cannot measure at any time. Don't mistake specific examples of when range measurement can be done as meaning it cannot be done at any other time.

 



#6 Buhallin

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

ziggy2000 said:

Doesn't need citation. There is nothing saying you cannot measure at any time. Don't mistake specific examples of when range measurement can be done as meaning it cannot be done at any other time.

So, if I were to take your models, put them on the ground, stomp on them and declare them destroyed I'd win, right?  After all, the rules don't say I can't do that…

This is a common mistake when it comes to rules analysis.  Rules can be either prescriptive - telling you what you can do - or proscirptive - telling you what you cannot do.

The entire concept of proscriptive rules falls apart in a heartbeat.  A rules system cannot possibly tell you everything you cannot do.  Any rules for games are, almost by their very definition, prescriptive.  They tell you what you can do, not what you can't do.

So yes, examples of when you can do range measurement do go a long way towards meaning that it cannot be done at any other time.  That's not guarantees, but that's more because of a failing in the rules than anything to do with game rules as a concept.

 



#7 ziggy2000

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

OK fair enough. Although if you stomped on my models there would be far greater consequences than just winning the game.

Anyone else agree that there are limitations on when you can measure range? I know the group I play with has never had this restriction. Nor any tournaments that I know of, all the way to Worlds.



#8 paradox23

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

 

There is specific citation in the rules regarding preventing the use of maneuver templates.  There is no citation in the rules prohibiting the range ruler from being used. The conversation could technically end there.

 

You have to be able to measure ranges to know which powers are in effect for several pilots; with constant maneuvering and adjustments from actions, you may have to constantly check the ranges. 

 

Now let's break it down the practical aspects of the rule logically.

Anytime you move a ship you can check range because there are abilities triggered by range. Anytime a ship takes an action you have to be able to check range for actions like target locks, squad leader, etc. Anytime you are about to fire a weapon, you have to check range to know your possible targets and their ranges. Sometimes you have to check ranges during an attack to see what powers are triggered. Sometimes you have to check ranges after an attack to resolve other effects. I'm pretty sure that is every phase of the game aside from the planning phase.

Before the planning phase, I think it's fair to say that you can check ranges about which powers will be triggered… but during the planning phase, I could see it argued that the range ruller could be used as a surrogate for a maneuver template which would be a violation and should be prohibited if abused.

 

 



#9 Grimwalker

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:49 PM

I see absolutely no value added to the game by prescribing exactly when Range may or may not be measured. The only prohibition against measuring is during the Planning Phase with respect to maneuver templates.



#10 ScottieATF

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

Grimwalker said:

 

I see absolutely no value added to the game by prescribing exactly when Range may or may not be measured. The only prohibition against measuring is during the Planning Phase with respect to maneuver templates.

 

 

Allowing someone to measure range during the Planning Phase is just an end around on the rule about not being allowed to pre-measure movement.  If you allow people to measure range at that point you are giving them a tool to premeasure movement with as well.

You can measure when an action/abilities tells you to (only to the limits of the ability/action) or when preparing to target for an attack.



#11 Sunsteel

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:13 PM

In my game experience I am looking for a blending of a well balanced game and what my imagination says it would feel like to live this situation. Through this perspective I could picture that each ship has computers that are constantly collecting data on the position and movement of other ships and displaying it for me as a pilot. If this sounds reasonable then I would argue in favor of being able to measure my range at any time with out limitation.

#12 Grimwalker

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

I'm with you on not using the Range Ruler to cheat during Planning Phase, sure. But outside of that, pettifogging over when you are or aren't allowed to measure range would only bog down the flow of the game.

suffice it to say it's never been a problem.



#13 ziggy2000

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:10 AM

ziggy2000 said:

Anyone else agree that there are limitations on when you can measure range? I know the group I play with has never had this restriction. Nor any tournaments that I know of, all the way to Worlds.

I want to clarify this statement to include "outside the planning phase". I never meant to imply that you should be allowed to measure range during planning, for all the reasons that Scottie ATF and others mention above.

 



#14 Sunsteel

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

ScottieATF said:

Grimwalker said:

�

I see absolutely no value added to the game by prescribing exactly when Range may or may not be measured. The only prohibition against measuring is during the Planning Phase with respect to maneuver templates.

�

�

Allowing someone to measure range during the Planning Phase is just an end around on the rule about not being allowed to pre-measure movement.� If you allow people to measure range at that point you are giving them a tool to premeasure movement with as well.

You can measure when an action/abilities tells you to (only to the limits of the ability/action) or when preparing to target for an attack.

Even though I agree, that range measuring during planning can be used as an end around to movement checking during the planning phase, knowing your distance from ships is important at all times and determines your movement choices. I have no problem with this since both players can do it and is not unreasonable in my opinion. I would not, however, want to see it become something that players slow down the pace of the game with. But a quick check of distance to an enemy ship is fine in my book. There just aren't any current rules to curtail possible abuse.

#15 ScottieATF

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:10 AM

Sunsteel said:

ScottieATF said:

Grimwalker said:

�

I see absolutely no value added to the game by prescribing exactly when Range may or may not be measured. The only prohibition against measuring is during the Planning Phase with respect to maneuver templates.

�

�

Allowing someone to measure range during the Planning Phase is just an end around on the rule about not being allowed to pre-measure movement.� If you allow people to measure range at that point you are giving them a tool to premeasure movement with as well.

You can measure when an action/abilities tells you to (only to the limits of the ability/action) or when preparing to target for an attack.

Even though I agree, that range measuring during planning can be used as an end around to movement checking during the planning phase, knowing your distance from ships is important at all times and determines your movement choices. I have no problem with this since both players can do it and is not unreasonable in my opinion. I would not, however, want to see it become something that players slow down the pace of the game with. But a quick check of distance to an enemy ship is fine in my book. There just aren't any current rules to curtail possible abuse.

The rulebook does not say you can measure range to ships during the Planning Phase, so you can't measure range in the Planning Phase.  The rulebook highlights a number of instances where you can measure range, the Planning Phase isn't one of them.

You can't look at rulesets and say, "Well it doesn't say I can't, so therefore I can", no game's rules can function in that way.



#16 mrgoodtrips

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:09 AM

At the bottom of page 8 in the rule book it does say the player can pre measure for a barrel roll before commiting.   as for pre measuring my gaming group uses the following house rules:       obviously you cant pre measure movement templates but we do allow pre measure for range as sometimes abillities can tke effect before a ship moves eg:    Dutch vander allows a friendly ship at range 1-2 to aquire a target lock after he has performed a target lock,  if the ship at range 1-2 has not already moved here is an example of range measurement outside of the action phase.  we also allow for pre measure of turbo boost although there is nothing in the rules that states otherwise we take the assumption that a pilot might not take a maneuvre that could put him in dangerous situation eg overlap or asteroid(similar to barrel roll).


c


#17 dandirk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

Sorry but imo the debate is a bit silly (the question isn't just the debate).

 

1. They specifically covered movement "rmeasuring" limitations and allowances.  If there were similar restrictions to fire ranging there would be specific mention of that.  At least in my opinion.  I agree with most here… movement measuring no, fire measuring yes… simple and easy.

2. Does it matter if someone thought themselves clever and memorized movement distances to the range ruler?  Not really, cause if you "ban" range measuring during planning that doesn't stop someone from doing it anyways during the combat phase for the next turn when most ships are in their final place already.   There are a million ways to get "around" the measuring rule, from the human fingers to mats with star fields.

Lets also forget that the time it would take to memorize and be skillful enough to use the firing range ruler for movement, chances are you know the distances anyways and don't need them.

That said… I would not play with someone that did movement measuring like that all the time.  Wouldn't care so much once in a while.  I just don't want to play a game with people like that.



#18 hothie

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

"Hi, you may know me as Hothie on the FFG boards"
"Hi, I'm Ziggy2000 on there."
"Here's my squad"
"Here's my squad"
"Let's determine initiative." Initiative determined.
"Okay, asteroid placement" (Grabs Range Ruler)
"Okay, now ship placement" (Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, planning phase" (if you grab your Range ruler, I look at you skeptically and ask why you're grabbing your Range ruler.)
"Ok, activation phase" I move my Dutch-(Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, start of Combat Phase" Swarm Tactics-(Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, combat phase" (Grabs Range Ruler for determining Range of each attack of each ship)

Yeah, I'd say Planning Phase is the only time when I DON'T use the Range ruler for anything, well, I guess and technically End phase…


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#19 ScottieATF

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

hothie said:

"Hi, you may know me as Hothie on the FFG boards"
"Hi, I'm Ziggy2000 on there."
"Here's my squad"
"Here's my squad"
"Let's determine initiative." Initiative determined.
"Okay, asteroid placement" (Grabs Range Ruler)
"Okay, now ship placement" (Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, planning phase" (if you grab your Range ruler, I look at you skeptically and ask why you're grabbing your Range ruler.)
"Ok, activation phase" I move my Dutch-(Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, start of Combat Phase" Swarm Tactics-(Grabs Range Ruler)
"Ok, combat phase" (Grabs Range Ruler for determining Range of each attack of each ship)

Yeah, I'd say Planning Phase is the only time when I DON'T use the Range ruler for anything, well, I guess and technically End phase…

So basically you only use the range ruler when an ability or rulebook forces you to or says you can? 



#20 paradox23

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

More like, basically use the range ruller anytime you feel like it, but don't used it during the planning phase because there is no actual reason to other than to use it as a proxy for a maneuver template.






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