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#1 Ratatoskr

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

Fully spoiled here:

http://deckbauer.tel...2&action=search



#2 tibs3688

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:41 AM

Naval Superiority is like "whaaaaaaaat?"

3 claim?  With no drawback?  And such an easy condition?

I mean I know they want to support their new mechanic but this seems a bit much.



#3 divinityofnumber

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:04 AM

tibs3688 said:

Naval Superiority is like "whaaaaaaaat?"

3 claim?  With no drawback?  And such an easy condition?

I mean I know they want to support their new mechanic but this seems a bit much.

 

They will just restrict it after everyone buys it.   ;)


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#4 Dr.Cornelius

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:56 PM

tibs3688 said:

Naval Superiority is like "whaaaaaaaat?"

3 claim?  With no drawback?  And such an easy condition?

I mean I know they want to support their new mechanic but this seems a bit much.

  Does anyone need more evidence this game has jumped the shark?   My melee-oriented playgroup was already falling apart due to balance issues and stagnation, but the Naval craziness is the final nail in the coffin.  Too bad to see such a great game devolve into a morass of blatant power creep.



#5 Ratatoskr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

Dr.Cornelius said:

  Does anyone need more evidence this game has jumped the shark?   My melee-oriented playgroup was already falling apart due to balance issues and stagnation, but the Naval craziness is the final nail in the coffin.  Too bad to see such a great game devolve into a morass of blatant power creep.

 

Funny. To me, the game is as much fun as ever. Although I do share concerns that Black Sails is insanely overpowered.



#6 Alando

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:58 PM

I don't think Naval Superiority is that crazy. Declaring a naval attacker is different from just having a naval character in the challenge- you'll need at least two characters or a Fleet for each challenge, with specific icon/naval icon combinations.



#7 fhornmikey

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

Yes, I think some people's confusion about how Black Sails/Naval plots etc. work is leading them to believe they are ridiculously overpowered, they are definitely strong but I don't know if they are too strong (that's what we'll find out in OP this year!).

 

Also, I heard somewhere that the sky is falling, RUN WHILE YOU CAN.



#8 Vaapad

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:17 AM

fhornmikey said:

Yes, I think some people's confusion about how Black Sails/Naval plots etc. work is leading them to believe they are ridiculously overpowered, they are definitely strong but I don't know if they are too strong (that's what we'll find out in OP this year!).

 

Also, I heard somewhere that the sky is falling, RUN WHILE YOU CAN.

+1.  People need to take a deep breath, familiarize themselves with the new mechanics in PRACTICE, not theory, and wait to form an opinion on the relative strength of Black Sails decks until such decks have been fairly tested.


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#9 Crevic

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:51 AM

Remember when House of Dreams was the most overpowered and broken card ever? 

 

….oh



#10 sWhiteboy

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

Naval Superiority is awesome, but not broken, imo.  You need at least two characters for every attacking challenge, and one of them has to be introduced via a Naval declaration.  So, what happens if your naval characters (or even your non-naval attackers that you were going to use to start the challenge) get control/killed through effects?  Then it's just a 3/3/1 plot., which is….eh.



#11 mdc273

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:52 AM

Dr.Cornelius said:

tibs3688 said:

 

Naval Superiority is like "whaaaaaaaat?"

3 claim?  With no drawback?  And such an easy condition?

I mean I know they want to support their new mechanic but this seems a bit much.

 

  Does anyone need more evidence this game has jumped the shark?   My melee-oriented playgroup was already falling apart due to balance issues and stagnation, but the Naval craziness is the final nail in the coffin.  Too bad to see such a great game devolve into a morass of blatant power creep.

 

Learn to time Forgotten Plans. Watch lots of mediocre stat plots played as mediocre stat plots. The only disadvantage is you only have one Forgotten Plans… I wish that weren't the case. It seems to be a very well-balanced card.



#12 Dr.Cornelius

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

mdc273 said:

Learn to time Forgotten Plans. Watch lots of mediocre stat plots played as mediocre stat plots. The only disadvantage is you only have one Forgotten Plans… I wish that weren't the case. It seems to be a very well-balanced card.

Well said, sir.  The strength of your argument forces me to reverse my position.  How could I have been so blind?  In an environment that includes Forgotten Plans, no plot card can possibly be overpowered.



#13 mdc273

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Dr.Cornelius said:

mdc273 said:

Learn to time Forgotten Plans. Watch lots of mediocre stat plots played as mediocre stat plots. The only disadvantage is you only have one Forgotten Plans… I wish that weren't the case. It seems to be a very well-balanced card.

 

 

Well said, sir.  The strength of your argument forces me to reverse my position.  How could I have been so blind?  In an environment that includes Forgotten Plans, no plot card can possibly be overpowered.

 

I was being sincere. Have you played with Forgotten Plans and see what it does to some of the most powerful plot cards in the game? It neuters To the Spears, First Snow, Loyalty Money Can Buy, Fear of Winter, the list goes on. I didn't see any theory crafting as to why the plot is overpowered. I didn't see probabilities of draws, averages power levels of cards killed by 3 claim, odds of winning the challenge or any of that, so I suggested playing a card that I could not tell whether or not you played. Very few people in my meta play it. I figure it's not the worst assumption that other metas are similar.



#14 tibs3688

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

The problem with forgotten plans is that you only get to run one of it, you don't get to see the other guy's plot deck, and the card is itself a mediocre stat plot with no effect when it misses.  There are specific plots that it's great against but there are at least as many, if not more, with "when revealed" effects that it does nothing to and there's no reliable way for you to know which one is going to come up.  I found that even running plots with good stats and no real effect otherwise, like song of summer, was more beneficial to me than forgotten plans since its effect was very hit-or-miss and I wasn't a fan of the 3 gold.



#15 snaggrriss

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:49 PM

Threat of triple claim is not new if you've been playing against starks: Bastard boys, Winter is Coming, Lonely Hills. There's plenty of options to deal with Naval superiority. YOu could try to time it right with Forgotten Plans, or you could wait till he plays it. There's the Rookerys for one. The most he's getting against you is 1 challenge. Out comes Forgotten plans. Ally in melee, get who wins initiative to attack you, bring out forgotten plans. A bungled orders would let you bring it out.

Margery Tyrell, Bran Stark. You've been waiting for a reason to play Vary's . Now's a good time. Put his plots  under your control. Sweet. You could time Loyalty Money can't buy to Alleviate the threat. perhaps

I think the best card that everone is forgetting is Conflict of Interest.. Just need a learned character. The Martells with some maesters have the least to worry Because of all the icon cancels, Scheming on the Sand, REd Vengeance. Citadel Law is a good event if you have some Maesters.

So the best ones i would say are Forgotten Plans already mentioned. Citadel Law, Conflict of interest and Margery Tyrell. These cards will make you good friends with the other player(s) if you 're playing melee. Naval Superiority may go restrcited. We'll have to wait until the cycle is complete and tested.



#16 Bomb

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

snaggrriss said:

I think the best card that everone is forgetting is Conflict of Interest.. Just need a learned character. The Martells with some maesters have the least to worry Because of all the icon cancels, Scheming on the Sand, REd Vengeance. Citadel Law is a good event if you have some Maesters.

Would Confict of Interest keep players from raising their claim though?  I thought "base claim" only meant starting claim number. 



#17 kr4ng

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:03 AM

snaggrriss said:

Threat of triple claim is not new if you've been playing against starks: Bastard boys, Winter is Coming, Lonely Hills. There's plenty of options to deal with Naval superiority. YOu could try to time it right with Forgotten Plans, or you could wait till he plays it. There's the Rookerys for one. The most he's getting against you is 1 challenge. Out comes Forgotten plans. Ally in melee, get who wins initiative to attack you, bring out forgotten plans. A bungled orders would let you bring it out.

During deckbuilding I am saying to myself, "Hmm, Steven, how should I deal with Naval Superiority? Well, maybe I could run forgotten plans, that will give me the chance to make my opponent have a 1 claim plot just like me! Yay. We can both have 3 gold, 1 claim, maybe… No that won't do. I certainly don't want to dilute my claim for the chance to dilute my opponents claim.  Maybe I should run some rooke--no, no, that isn't worth it, too conditional, too bad.  Man, what should I do? Wait, I know. I will just run my own Naval Superiority."

And welcome to the post regional restricted list.

 



#18 mdc273

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

kr4ng said:

snaggrriss said:

 

Threat of triple claim is not new if you've been playing against starks: Bastard boys, Winter is Coming, Lonely Hills. There's plenty of options to deal with Naval superiority. YOu could try to time it right with Forgotten Plans, or you could wait till he plays it. There's the Rookerys for one. The most he's getting against you is 1 challenge. Out comes Forgotten plans. Ally in melee, get who wins initiative to attack you, bring out forgotten plans. A bungled orders would let you bring it out.

 

 

During deckbuilding I am saying to myself, "Hmm, Steven, how should I deal with Naval Superiority? Well, maybe I could run forgotten plans, that will give me the chance to make my opponent have a 1 claim plot just like me! Yay. We can both have 3 gold, 1 claim, maybe… No that won't do. I certainly don't want to dilute my claim for the chance to dilute my opponents claim.  Maybe I should run some rooke--no, no, that isn't worth it, too conditional, too bad.  Man, what should I do? Wait, I know. I will just run my own Naval Superiority."

And welcome to the post regional restricted list.

 

I don't understand why more people don't run Forgotten Plans. If you hit Naval Superiority with it, you are ahead on the initiative and neuter it. There is literally not a single deck in my meta where I feel Forgotten Plans is a wasted card even when I miss with it. I can not see myself building a deck which doesn't use it.



#19 Vaapad

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:17 PM

Matt, you'll be pleased then that one of the decks I'm bringing Thursday includes it :)


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#20 Alando

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 03:20 PM

I don't agree that you need a specific answer to a conditional 3 claim plot. Just do the same as you would against a 2 claim plot, but with more urgency.






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