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Specialist weapons, standard kit? ammo?


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#1 Droma

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:43 AM

I've looked through the full version of the book and couldn't find any information so I'm asking the forum. Is there any information anywhere about whether or not specialist equipment is part of that characters standard kit and how much ammo they are issued?

For example:
A stormtrooper gets a good hot shot lasgun and stormtrooper carapace armor. Does that character have to use the logistics system to get ammo for his weapon? If the weapon or armor is destroyed or lost can that character get a free replacement or does he have to use the logistics system?

Regarding the logistics system in general how many times can a player make a request for an item? Can they roll an infinite number of times or is there a limit? How much ammo/grenades do they get from succeeding on a  logistics test?

The other systems make this stuff pretty cut and dry but Only War is very vague on the subject. Any help would be appreciated.



#2 Kiton

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

Far as I can tell, as its not part of the standard-kit per-se, and you have to 'explain' losing the weapon to command and get a new one through logistics if bad things happened, the weapon itself. Those you'll need to convince [logistics] command to get you a new  one, or otherwise procure one somehow. You're expected to care for your equipment after all.

Ammunition is not stated either way, but should probably be replenished to normal capacity from use with logistics only applying if you need to explain demands for extra mags. They'll keep you from going dry shooting all those heretics, but if word gets out that you've been moonlighting as "Canner, destroyer of tin containers", you're gonna get in trouble.

Specialist armour likely falls under the same deal: They'll certainly not say a word about replacing it if you took a melta for those behind you [assuming your new medal ain't posthumous] but if you lost the chest-plates in some drunken Tarot bet, they'll probably have you do without.

 

As usual this assumes there's spares available.



#3 Droma

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

What I got out of that is there isn't anything official so houserule everything.



#4 kumachan

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

standard ammo are resplainish for free (from my understand of rule) and it s logic, you will not be going to mission "nude"

Las charg pack are "standard" for nearly all weapon, so dont worry for stom trooper or other.

but if you need extra it s logistic test

in only war you don t have "gold" or "money" like in fantasy game. so you have to buy extra things or replace broken one by logistic test.

 

i agree the fact where if broken lascarabin, you need a logistic test, because a new one is not automaticaly available. Depend on war or front. If in a big barracks/warehouse in quiet good war front, it s easy. In a new war front… it s hard.

Other fact : in fluff commissar are allowed to execute GI which loose his weapon in combat (cause weapon are more important than GI themself). So asking for a new lascarbin or M36 could be dangerous in front of a commissar.



#5 Flail-Bot

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:03 AM

My understanding was that specialist equipment is added to that particular PCs standard kit. It makes sense that the heavy gunner in the squad is equipped with a heavy weapon and it's part of his normal kit. Part of picking a specialization is getting this extra role-specific equipment as part of your normal loadout.

As far as ammo, I just try to keep it reasonable. Ammo can be heavy for non-las weapons. So, 2-4 charge packs and 2-4 clips for bullets. However, for a stubber or a missile launcherd different. Maybe 200 rounds and 5 missiles of the players choice.

As for requisitioning things, I'd allow my players to make 1 requisition check per mission. If they're milling around base doing nothing, they don't get to req stuff. But once they have a mission, they can ask for things. Of course, they can requisition multiple items, but if they ask for a tank and fail, they can't say "Oh, we actually needed 2 tanks. Can we roll for the other one?"



#6 Ryath

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:39 AM

As it is stated in the rules on page 163-164 the Standard Regimental Guardsmen Kit is what every Guarsmen gets in that regiment and will stay the same the full time of his carrer unless he switches regiments.  Its the base kit all the guardsmen get and does not include any of the gear characters will get from the class they pick.  That means that for a Stormtrooper his hot-shot lasgun or carapace armor would not be part of his standard kit and would need to be replaced by a logistics skill check if he ever lost/damaged it.

For each of the specialist weapons they give the classes they don't say how much ammo each one gets, so you could assume at least 1 clip for the hot-shot las or up to 4 but there are rules to say one way or the other that would have to be a GM call.

The good news for the storm trooper is that a hot-shot las uses the same ammo as any other basic las weapon (page 192  Charge Pack (Basic)) so if your regimental gear gave you 1 M36 Las Rifle and 4 clips, like you would get from a Line Infantry Regiment for example, then at least you can use those 4 clips for you hot-shot las.  So if the Las Gun and 4 clips falls into the standard regimental kit, like it would if your from a Line Infantry regiment for example, then you could always get at least 4 clips of ammo with out any logistic check.  If you came from a regiment that didn't give you a Las Rifle of some kind, like Armored Regiment, then you would be stuck as las pistol clips don't work for las rifles. (Page 192 Chare Pack (Pistol), Charge Pack (Basic)).

For the logistics system there is no rule stated in the book that limits how many times you can make a logistics check.  In Rogue Trader's Into the Storm they had a system that would add a -10 to each roll after the first so you could use that but that would be a GM call.  I future Only War book I can see them coming out with a more fushed out set of rules for the logistics rules and maybe a few new tables too.  There are also no rules in the book that say how many clips or grenades are ordered per each logistics check, right now that seems to be a GM call.  So it could be 1 clip of ammo per check or 1 to 4 clips, but right now thats up to each GM.

Hope this helps a bit,  do agree some of the rules on the Logistic system need a bit more detal but I think its got a good foundation and I hope to see some tweeks to it in future books.

 



#7 Savage

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:48 AM

 

Page 68 lists the Guardsman’s ‘Universal Standard Kit’, to which should be added the equipment from your regiment’s Doctrines and your Speciality’s Specialist Equipment (they don’t give ammunition for Specialist Equipment weapons, so I give my players 4 clips/charge-packs).

If your Doctrine gives a weapon that is listed as ‘(Main Weapon)’ then this replaces the laspistol on the Universal Standard Kit list. Likewise, if your Doctrine lists better armour than the Flak Vest that is on the Universal list, it replaces the Flak Vest.

What you now have is your Guardsman’s standard equipment list… Page 68: “These items form the core of a character’s initial equipment list, are easy to replace, repair, or otherwise replenish, and are universally essential to possess.”

Concerning the replacement/replenishment of items on this list, it says on Page 164: “Ultimately, the standard kit should be viewed as a resource rather than a liability. Any time that a soldier is able to access a fortified military encampment, that character can fully resupply his kit from the regiment’s stores. Of course, this is subject to Game Master discretion. If a character goes through three lasguns a day for several days, there are likely to be some inquiries from his commanding officer, the base quartermaster, and the local Tech-Priests. While a reasonable explanation might resolve the issue, the consequences could be severe if one is unavailable.”

You should never have to make a Logistics test to replace items from your standard equipment list, or to replenish the ammunition for the weapons you have on that list.



#8 Savage

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

 

Ryath,

Your good news to Storm Troopers is wrong. The hot-shot lasgun does not use the standard charge pack that the M36 uses.

Page 176: “Hot-shot weapons use a 10 kg backpack power source rather than a standard plug-in pack”

The fact that this backpack power source is missing from the Armoury chapter, or more specifically that it varies quite drastically from the version of the Backpack Power Pack that is listed there (Page 192), is just one example of the HUGE GAPING HOLES in this book/game (which clearly wasn’t playtested very thoroughly).



#9 Droma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:49 AM

Savage said:

 

Ryath,

Your good news to Storm Troopers is wrong. The hot-shot lasgun does not use the standard charge pack that the M36 uses.

Page 176: “Hot-shot weapons use a 10 kg backpack power source rather than a standard plug-in pack”

The fact that this backpack power source is missing from the Armoury chapter, or more specifically that it varies quite drastically from the version of the Backpack Power Pack that is listed there (Page 192), is just one example of the HUGE GAPING HOLES in this book/game (which clearly wasn’t playtested very thoroughly).



I know for a fact this issue was brought up several times on the Beta forums. Nothing was ever done about it seems though.



#10 Droma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:51 AM

Savage said:

 

 

Page 68 lists the Guardsman’s ‘Universal Standard Kit’, to which should be added the equipment from your regiment’s Doctrines and your Speciality’s Specialist Equipment (they don’t give ammunition for Specialist Equipment weapons, so I give my players 4 clips/charge-packs).

 



Page number for the bolded part?

Edit: Bold text in quotes doesn't show up well it seems. I'm asking for a page number for "and your Speciality’s Specialist Equipment".

 



#11 KommissarK

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:00 AM

Savage said:

 

Ryath,

Your good news to Storm Troopers is wrong. The hot-shot lasgun does not use the standard charge pack that the M36 uses.

Page 176: “Hot-shot weapons use a 10 kg backpack power source rather than a standard plug-in pack”

The fact that this backpack power source is missing from the Armoury chapter, or more specifically that it varies quite drastically from the version of the Backpack Power Pack that is listed there (Page 192), is just one example of the HUGE GAPING HOLES in this book/game (which clearly wasn’t playtested very thoroughly).

It simply means there are two versions.

 

The stock weapon comes with the 10kg backpack, and contains the stock 30/40 shots for the hellgun/hellpistol. As a further option, it goes on to say "Hellguns can also be linked to larger backpack power sources (see page 137)." This clearly indicates that the backpack supply listed in the ammo section is another option. It weighs 25 kg and contains 200 shots.

I can see that its not "clear," but to use the language you use to describe the situation indicates a certain level of bias.



#12 Ryath

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:14 AM

It does look like my first though about being able to use a standard las gun clip in a hot-shot las gun is wrong.  Even though they say on page 192 that a charge pack can be use on any las weapon of the same class (Pistol, Basic or Heavy) the entry for Hot-Shot Lasgun does say it has its own special ammo setup.  And this does make sense as I do remeber seeing Storm Trooper models with a great big backpack and a wire contecting to the gun they had, also make sense with how much more powerful the hot-shot las gun is over the normal las gun.

 

Looking at the what it says for the Standard Regimental Guardsmen kit it states it does start off with that list fromt he Universal Standard Kit and then will be modified by any Equipment from Doctrines your regiment gets, like getting a M36 and full Guard Armor for a Line Regiment, and you get to further modifiy the kit with the 30 points you spend from the additional standard kit iteam list on page 69.  But I can see no mention that any of the gear you get from any Specialist Equipment you get becoming part of the Standard Regimental Guardsmen Kit.



#13 Savage

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

It doesn’t specifically say it because the book has huge gaping holes.



#14 Kiton

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

80, actually. Just 80.

The Backpack needs fixing [its needed it for several games now]. It gives 80 Las, Plasma or Melta rounds, 60 Flamer shots, or 200 Solid or Bolt rounds.

And that's it. Incredible deal for the Autocannon, where 10 full magazines would be 40kg, although individual rounds of that size for us tend 'round a good pound each themselves. Heavy Bolter? 200 shots. Good stuff, particularly given the wonky "10% of weapon weight per magazine" combined with everything in the weapon list being pounds with a kg next to it given what they oughta weigh.

But then you realize you're paying 25kg for 200 autopistol rounds, or for 80 lasgun shots. Yes, 80 lasgun shots. Even 200 wouldn't be at all worth it, given a single half-kg mag has 60 after all. Or 80 lascannon shots, which is good because 16 five-shot charge packs would be running you 88kg alone.

 

Even for hot-shots, a 10kg pack for 30 shots is woefully inefficient: stormtroopers are supposed to drop behind enemy lines with just two of those?

The entire list of weights in the weapon and ammo section [75lb empty tubes with 1lb Krak missiles anyone?] needs to honestly be redone, not just copypasted once again in the next books…



#15 KommissarK

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:51 AM

To be fair though, isn't the idea that Stormtroopers are also picked back up when their mission is complete? That they are only supposed to be on the ground on the order of minutes? That the other troops dislike them as they get all the glory, but only spend a fraction of the time in the actual battle.



#16 Blood Pact

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

The backpack is factoring heavy weapons. You're right, it's great for autocannons, but it sucks for autoguns, because the ammo count for solid projectile weapons is set to balance against the autocannon. And yeah, it's only 80 lasgun shots. But how about lascannons?

While the problem could 'simply' be solved by expanding the list of weapons and the numbers of shots it provides for them, the whole thing begins to get a bit too much when it's taking up more and more of a column.



#17 Droma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:23 PM

The book seems to do two things well.

1: Standard kit so your characters can always have some basic gear.
2: Very clear rules for getting completely new gear.

Anything that falls outside of the above two things is left almost completely to the GM.



#18 Savage

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:13 PM

If the book does Universal Standard Kit "well"…

Can you tell me where to find descriptions and weights for those items?

I can't find it…

 And they wouldn't list the basic equipment in character generation and then NOT have those items in the Armoury…

Would they?

Surely that would qualify as a HUGE GAPING HOLE in the book.



#19 Lord Steel

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:01 PM

Well I may be mis understanding what you mean by Kit but if you are talking about stuff like "1 Uniform (field), 1 set of Poor weather gear. etc" I think the reason they left much of the details on such things out is that they are pretty unimportant and unlikely to come up in game play in any meaningful way. Also most of the items I saw were pretty self explanitory, I mean a basic tool kit in all likely hood has a hammer, a wrench, some wire clippers, and that regiments homeworlds version of the Omni Tool and if they are truly blessed by the Machine, Duct Tape, WD-40, and Bondo ( These items ,Which every tech Priest worth his Cog knows, can fix damn near anything). So to sum up Most of the stuff in the standard kit simply did not merit page space due to being unimportant/self explanitory. Now as for the  Question at hand the way i see Specialist equipment is that this is the stuff they give you once you get out of basic (So your a heavy? Here is your flamer…don't lose it!) and may not be part of the standard load out for the Regiment as a whole (would you trust most of these guys with a Flamer?) so there for if said Item gets lost or damaged or eaten by a Squig it is a little harder to get a new one hence the need for a roll.



#20 Graey

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

My personal solution to the hellgun/hot-shot lasgun thing was simply to treat it as a complex battery/charge pack change, whith the pack amplifying/modifying the output for consistent performance. I've been following that issue since DH, and between that, and looking up Storm Trooper fluff (three wikis, two codeces, and the Munitorum manual), that's likely the easiest explanation.






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